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====== Tribute to Bushlurker ======

**Tribute to Bushlurker** by Snake Man, PMC.

**01-09-17** I opened arma discord chat and saw this:
<code>
[4:43 PM] Mondkalb: Dear Terrainmaker's community,

It is a sad occasion having to inform you that a good colleague and friend, Bushlurker, has passed away this weekend after a long battle with illness.
He was an integral part of the Arma community for over a decade, and there is no doubt that his contributions, tutorials and overall knowledge left behind will continue to shape and impact this field of the community.
This hobby was very dear to him and he thoroughly loved and enjoyed working on his various projects.

Bushlurker has my eternal respect for his work and the cheerful help he gave so very freely.
I'll certainly remember him as a cheerful scotsman, expert terrain maker, skilled artist and 80s rock-band star, and I hope he won't mind that I am bearing these news out so early.

Please give his family the time and privacy they need in such a grave time.

:heart:
</code>

As you can read from below I started chatting with Bushlurker in skype back in summer of 2012. Since then I had long discussions with him about arma terrains in private and in skype chats, as well as some forum posts too.

I saw him briefly on the arma discord server where he used "shrubsneaker" name shortly after august 2016. Sent him a private message there and it is so sad now to see that forever empty private message window to him :(

His passing is a great loss for the arma terrain community. I will miss him deeply :(

Today I went through all my text notes about our private chats, as I used to copy paste the important close to tutorial raw materials to safety. These are not all of our chats just a lot of such stuff I imagined polishing and putting to PMC Editing Wiki as tutorials, but just never got around to it. I decided to add them as direct copy pastes here as they contain valuable arma terrain editing information, as well being reminder of what a nice guy he was. I hope you get valuable terrain information out of these and remember Bushlurker as the great terrain guy he was.

It is nice to see these conversations, its almost like Bushlurker is talking directly to me again.

Rest in peace Bushlurker.


====== Bushlurker Initial Chat in Skype 2012 ======

**06-27-12** was the first time I chatted with Bushlurker in skype, when he added me to the "terrain group".

<code>
[6/27/2012 12:55:21 AM] Snake Man: Looking for ArmA 2 editing related stuff, terrains mostly. Snake Man, PMC.
[6/27/2012 12:56:01 AM] Bushlurker: Bushlurker has shared contact details with Snake Man.
[6/27/2012 12:56:54 AM] Snake Man: first time using skype here, finally give in and installed it.
[6/27/2012 12:57:43 AM] Bushlurker: hey there!
[6/27/2012 12:59:34 AM] Bushlurker: its a handy tool I guess - a lot of mods use it for team chat
[6/27/2012 12:59:46 AM] Bushlurker: theres a terrain group - added you to that already
[6/27/2012 1:00:04 AM] Snake Man: thanks. how do I "get there"? :)
[6/27/2012 1:00:19 AM] Bushlurker: theres a missions one I usually ignore but I'll add you to that too... there's probably a modellers one too
[6/27/2012 1:00:52 AM] Bushlurker: I think now you're in the group it'll show up when someone posts - then you can add it like a contact to your list
[6/27/2012 1:01:00 AM] Bushlurker: hold on - I'll type something in here
[6/27/2012 1:02:10 AM] Bushlurker: ok - terrain group should show under your "recent" tab just shortly, since theres been a new post
[6/27/2012 1:02:20 AM] Bushlurker: skype takes ages to catch up sometimes
[6/27/2012 1:02:43 AM] Bushlurker: its one saving grace is you can hit the down arrow key and "take back" something you said
[6/27/2012 1:02:45 AM] Bushlurker: ;)
[6/27/2012 1:03:02 AM] Bushlurker: ... or at least fix typos
[6/27/2012 1:03:27 AM] Snake Man: through bis forums I joined (it seems so at least) to mission makers and linux arma server channels.
[6/27/2012 1:04:19 AM] Bushlurker: there might be a modellers one too.... dunno
[6/27/2012 1:06:01 AM] Snake Man: do you have sickboys contact info in skype, it was his sixthsense.eu email or something but I don't remember what?
[6/27/2012 1:08:40 AM] Bushlurker: sickboy-6thsense.eu
[6/27/2012 1:09:46 AM] Snake Man: thanks.
[6/27/2012 1:09:53 AM] Bushlurker: he's on just now... just saw him in the CWR2 Git-repo angst thread
[6/27/2012 1:10:45 AM] Snake Man: is there any public (or which I can join) CWR2 channels?
[6/27/2012 1:12:21 AM] Bushlurker: there isn't really a public cwr2 one - just a dev arguing one
[6/27/2012 1:13:26 AM] Bushlurker: the terrain one is mostly newbies with basic questions
[6/27/2012 1:14:17 AM] Snake Man: okay. yeah I guess I'm here just that "I dont miss out on anything" ;)
[6/27/2012 1:15:08 AM] Snake Man: often times these hardcore developer guys put on "face" in forums but speak their mind on private chats etc. I guess its nice to speak in person with many of these guys.
[6/27/2012 1:15:50 AM] Bushlurker: being in the few big groups like terrain & missions gets you lists of all the people who're members, so you can browse for people you know, etc and get their individual skype ID's
[6/27/2012 1:16:48 AM] Bushlurker: a few of the BIS devs hang around on Skype a lot, yeah
[6/27/2012 1:17:13 AM] Bushlurker: Miro turns up in the terrain chat quite a bit
[6/27/2012 1:17:36 AM] Snake Man: Miro, whos he? :)
[6/27/2012 1:18:43 AM] Bushlurker: BIS terrain guy - think he did bits of Takistan, plus the take on helicopters stuff
[6/27/2012 1:20:32 AM] Bushlurker: theres a few other BIS devs hang around as well... useful for the odd direct question
[6/27/2012 1:21:45 AM] Snake Man: btw unrelated question; I played ArmA 2 a YEAR ago last time, now when I play with 1.60 + latest betas, some missions (heavy ones indeed) which worked just ok previously, are now in single digits FPS. has the 1.60 and later patches made the engine somehow more CPU intensive or something?
[6/27/2012 1:23:06 AM] Bushlurker: I never bother with the betas so I can't vouch for them, but if anything I kinda thought things have improved quite a bit - things running better than before...
[6/27/2012 1:23:37 AM] Bushlurker: then again I've upgraded my kit over the last year as well, so its hard to judge
[6/27/2012 1:24:30 AM] Snake Man: I'm running mid 2009 bough stuff, AMD X2 7750, 4gb ram, ATI Radeon HD 4850.
[6/27/2012 1:24:55 AM] Snake Man: its just those missions (on chernarus) that have many AI running around.
[6/27/2012 1:25:37 AM] Bushlurker: guess thats a missionmakers channel question really - theres a lot more actual players in there
[6/27/2012 1:26:51 AM] Snake Man: have you wrote much about your terrain editing workflow in the forums I could read upon? (or do you mind if I ask here)
[6/27/2012 1:27:37 AM] Bushlurker: I did a beginners guide a while back.... just the basics though - in a very long-winded way
[6/27/2012 1:29:15 AM] Snake Man: I recall reading you're using the L3DT Pro. someone (I honestly cant remember who, someone in the "old guard" anyways) says that it sucks that its lame ie "cheating" to make terrain (textures) with that. how do you like using it etc?
[6/27/2012 1:31:23 AM | Edited 1:31:29 AM] Bushlurker: I use it for generating basic 4 colour sat & masks really - it's ok for that stuff - the texturing on the sat layer isn't brilliant, but I enhance that, and it does a good job of "reading" heightmaps, and assigning logical areas like sand, grass, lush, dry, slope, rock.... quite clever
[6/27/2012 1:31:57 AM] Snake Man: is the pro version required, or can you get something done with the free one?
[6/27/2012 1:32:30 AM] Bushlurker: free one is all you need for heightmap editing - does up to 2048x2048 - no restrictions or time limit
[6/27/2012 1:32:51 AM] Bushlurker: texturing and masks facility is limited to 4096x4096 max though
[6/27/2012 1:33:17 AM] Bushlurker: theres a 3 month demo available for the asking - well worth a look
[6/27/2012 1:34:24 AM] Bushlurker: a good text is if you have a heightmap and sat from some realworld location - feed the heightmap to l3dt and see where it puts stuff like sand, rock, grass, "rougher steep slopes"... then compare it to the real world sat image
[6/27/2012 1:34:53 AM] Bushlurker: it mostly gets it at least ballpark correct
[6/27/2012 1:36:05 AM] Bushlurker: so thats kinda encouraging...
[6/27/2012 1:36:16 AM] Bushlurker: works well for "imaginary" terrains...
[6/27/2012 1:37:25 AM] Bushlurker: for realworld stuff I feature extract from the sat to get a mask - then make a synthetic sat from the mask and blend it with the realworld sat image
[6/27/2012 1:38:45 AM] Snake Man: okay. I'll check that out better, only took a quick look at it last year.
[6/27/2012 1:42:32 AM] Snake Man: have you learned the settings which start to cause FPS drop, like too high terrain detail cell size. I mean you can do 51km terrain with 50m cell size, but then even 5km terrain stutters with 1m cell size etc.
[6/27/2012 1:43:14 AM] Bushlurker: depends on the number of cells as well
[6/27/2012 1:43:31 AM] Bushlurker: I did a few wee 5x5km terrains - 1024x1024 - 5m
[6/27/2012 1:44:22 AM] Bushlurker: FPS was consistently good with them... but I did a 2048x2048 x 4m one as a test recently and it was a real fps hog - even empty
[6/27/2012 1:45:19 AM] Bushlurker: 2048x2048x5m wasn't significantly better either - so it wasn't the drop from 5 to 4m cell.... four times as many of em was the problem
[6/27/2012 1:45:58 AM] Bushlurker: though I did notice that if I dropped the viewdistance down from 8km to about 3.5km it improved significantly
[6/27/2012 1:46:15 AM] Bushlurker: lots of small cells all visible at once  = maybe not a good idea
[6/27/2012 1:48:08 AM] Snake Man: yeah, been thinking of adding some detail to my terrain(s) and wondering how much I can pump detail there.
[6/27/2012 1:48:34 AM] Snake Man: (oops) btw what erosion tools you like to use, or do you use any for the realistic terrains?
[6/27/2012 1:48:45 AM] Bushlurker: I also suspected from that experiment, now I remember, that I had the impression that heightmap complexity might have played a part too.... not just lots of cells, but lots of variation in heights going on.... it was a heavily modelled heightmap
[6/27/2012 1:49:12 AM] Snake Man: yeah some crazy bumpy heighmap causes stutter too.
[6/27/2012 1:49:50 AM] Bushlurker: I used to use the erosion tools in Wilbur over a basic photoshopped basemap, but nowadays I use the G forge plugin for leveller for almost all that synthetic stuff
[6/27/2012 1:50:02 AM] Bushlurker: think I might have a photo...
[6/27/2012 1:50:28 AM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/BushIslands/Waadi_Armaan/ArmA2OA%202012-05-30%2005-17-43-53.png
[6/27/2012 1:50:30 AM] Snake Man: ah leveller, I recall hearing about that from Nicholas Bell, commercial software(?).
[6/27/2012 1:50:36 AM] Bushlurker: yeah
[6/27/2012 1:50:51 AM] Bushlurker: though only earlier this month it had a drastic price drop
[6/27/2012 1:51:02 AM] Bushlurker: was $199 - now $49
[6/27/2012 1:51:14 AM] Snake Man: sweet looking terrain on the screenshot.
[6/27/2012 1:51:48 AM] Bushlurker: plays like a pig an' I dunno why :(
[6/27/2012 1:57:02 AM] Snake Man: when you create object placement for cities, is there some special method do you use or just one by one and watching the results in buldozer?
[6/27/2012 1:57:43 AM] Snake Man: btw I havent checked any of your terrains other than screenshots (at least I cant remember from last year), dunno if you have done lot of city stuff ;)
[6/27/2012 2:01:05 AM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/Assorted%20Temp/vb_T11_test_11.png
[6/27/2012 2:01:16 AM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/Assorted%20Temp/vbT11_test_08.png
[6/27/2012 2:01:30 AM] Bushlurker: I've done a big city or two... just not for Arma 2
[6/27/2012 2:02:20 AM] Bushlurker: prefer doing little countryside villages n stuff tho
[6/27/2012 2:02:22 AM] Snake Man: hmm is that take on helicopters or vbs2, objects while look good, do have lack of details?
[6/27/2012 2:02:49 AM] Bushlurker: that ones all vbs2 stuff
[6/27/2012 2:03:09 AM] Bushlurker: about arma 1 quality visually mostly
[6/27/2012 2:03:57 AM] Snake Man: ok. yeah my biggest challenge to learn is how to make large cities which look good, without having to place object one by one which takes forever.
[6/27/2012 2:09:29 AM] Snake Man: also its two different worlds to look object placement in WrpTool/Visitor and in-game. I hate to work two-three hours on some place and then go in-game to see that it looks like crap :)
[6/27/2012 2:10:45 AM] Bushlurker: the built in 3d editor has a couple of flaws
[6/27/2012 2:11:41 AM] Bushlurker: but you can place stuff with that in a more "live in game type context, then export a file - run it thru world tools and turn it into a visitor import objects file
[6/27/2012 2:11:47 AM] Bushlurker: a few people work that way
[6/27/2012 2:12:35 AM] Snake Man: I definitely have to look into that. I prolly started the 3d editor once. also didn't monkalb make some sort of ... UI thingy to place some objects.
[6/27/2012 2:14:14 AM] Bushlurker: think so
[6/27/2012 2:14:55 AM] Bushlurker: I've never tried the 3d ed > worldtools > vis pathway before - I've just got used to visitor/buldozer
[6/27/2012 2:16:14 AM] Snake Man: but otherwise you have used world tools, like vegetation and so on?
[6/27/2012 2:16:47 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - WT is good for veg - I've never understood its objects bit
[7/3/2012 1:10:17 AM] Snake Man: hi there, was it just my skype or did you send some msg or something saying just "."? :)
[7/3/2012 1:11:09 AM] Bushlurker: apparently it was me :$
[7/3/2012 1:11:38 AM] Bushlurker: think it went out as a general profile "status" message type thing
[7/3/2012 1:12:29 AM] Snake Man: yeah, skype seems to be really concerned about our friends, heh, I've been here what two days and already it announces that "your friends havent been really active..." hehe.
[7/3/2012 1:12:57 AM] Snake Man: anyways, hows terrain business?
[7/3/2012 1:13:18 AM] Bushlurker: ok
[7/3/2012 1:14:03 AM] Bushlurker: delivered a city sampler today for some brit military or security show or something
[7/3/2012 1:14:32 AM] Bushlurker: not sure whats next
[7/3/2012 1:15:32 AM] Bushlurker: more city stuff maybe if it goes down well
[7/3/2012 1:15:58 AM] Snake Man: oh, nice.
[7/3/2012 1:18:51 AM] Snake Man: I did lot of research today, read the bis forum maps under construction topic through, checked some youtube videos of terrains etc. like I said earlier (I think) I've been totally away from arma2 about a year now.
[7/3/2012 1:19:54 AM] Bushlurker: not much has changed really.... world tools - thats handy for veg, and homers new road tool looks good though I haven't tried it yet
[7/3/2012 1:20:20 AM] Bushlurker: mikeros arma2p tool has made installing a lot easier
[7/3/2012 1:23:42 AM] Snake Man: I want to give L3DT method a try when I get some time. been busy just playing for now :)
[7/3/2012 1:24:40 AM] Snake Man: but also I just want to give fine details for my PMC 51km Desert terrain.
[7/3/2012 1:25:31 AM] Bushlurker: l3dt is a great program - well worth playing around with
[7/3/2012 1:25:51 AM] Bushlurker: its a little tricky & confusing at first but the built in help is really good
[7/3/2012 1:26:22 AM] Bushlurker: every option window or popup has a link that takes you to a little help/tutorial for that parameter or tool
[7/3/2012 5:44:19 PM] Snake Man: hello, let me know when you come online ;)
[7/3/2012 8:14:21 PM] Bushlurker: hi SM
[7/3/2012 8:14:29 PM] Bushlurker: what's up?
[7/3/2012 8:25:39 PM] Snake Man: hey there. actually, I forgot what my specific thing was hehe, but some terrain stuff in general anyways :)
[7/3/2012 8:25:50 PM] Snake Man: I was in-game for couple of hours straight.
[7/3/2012 8:27:52 PM] Bushlurker: :D...  no probs... should be around off and on for the rest of the evening now if you remember ;)
[7/4/2012 3:38:03 AM] Snake Man: hello, you still up?
[7/4/2012 3:41:35 AM] Bushlurker: ... almost
[7/4/2012 3:42:03 AM] Snake Man: sorry I fell asleep earlier, been all day playing arma2 so that takes a toll :)
[7/4/2012 3:42:52 AM] Snake Man: I wanted to talk about city object placement.
[7/4/2012 3:46:19 AM] Bushlurker: lots of objects in cities so they take a while to do
[7/4/2012 3:46:50 AM] Snake Man: do you have some sort of tool pipeline or workflow how you create populated places?
[7/4/2012 3:47:38 AM] Bushlurker: well.... not really
[7/4/2012 3:47:45 AM] Bushlurker: every place is different
[7/4/2012 3:48:13 AM] Bushlurker: if its a real place then copy whats there - give an impression rather than trying to include everything
[7/4/2012 3:49:12 AM] Bushlurker: I usually get main buildings & roads down first, then build gardens etc, then greenery
[7/4/2012 3:49:42 AM] Snake Man: do you think about road's / street's how wide they are, for example its not very realistic to have road signs so close to it when you drive a car you cant really turn intersection without pushing over few signs (like what almost happens in chernarus heh)?
[7/4/2012 3:50:10 AM] Bushlurker: you have to make "game" compromises here and there
[7/4/2012 3:50:33 AM] Bushlurker: AI would never be able to drive on a real scale fully dressed realworld street
[7/4/2012 3:52:15 AM] Snake Man: most difficult thing for me is to evaluate (well you learn everything by experience of course) if terrain editing tool view would look/work OK in-game.
[7/4/2012 3:52:48 AM] Snake Man: I mean when you look at objects in editor and think "thats nice", but it doesn't necessarily mean they look good at all in-game 3D :)
[7/4/2012 3:55:20 AM] Bushlurker: well you can crank the editor settings up to match ingame - though theres no clutter of course
[7/4/2012 3:56:06 AM] Snake Man: well I kind of spoke as WrpTool generation guy, no buldozer view available :)
[7/4/2012 3:56:56 AM] Snake Man: in visitor3 its of course easy to open bulldozer and monitor progress there, but thats of course prone to crashing and bugging etc, at least my experience is not to use it very much. and if you do, save and save often.
[7/4/2012 3:57:29 AM] Bushlurker: I'm used to the whole thing now - its stable enough really
[7/4/2012 3:58:14 AM] Snake Man: can you pick road/bridge objects in buldozer, I had problems doing so when aligning all VTE bridges last year?
[7/4/2012 3:58:48 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - they're just the same as any other object really
[7/4/2012 3:59:07 AM] Bushlurker: gotta go MP - bak later
[7/4/2012 3:59:15 AM] Snake Man: ok have fun.
[7/4/2012 6:01:50 AM | Edited 6:02:03 AM] Bushlurker: back.......
Technically you could work the "wrp tool" way... using the ingame 3d editor plus worldtools - WT has a converter which'll convert the 3d editor files to visitor object import files... a bit of a fuss and I've never actually tried it, but a few guys prefer to work that way.....
[7/5/2012 9:31:20 PM] Snake Man: hey, how you doing?
[7/5/2012 10:46:31 PM] Bushlurker: hi sm... how's things?
[7/5/2012 10:47:21 PM] Snake Man: doing good thanks, tinkering with some mission editing, tweaks for my MP mission. thinking about terrain development that city object placement etc ;)
[7/5/2012 10:47:49 PM] Snake Man: earlier you said off to MP, do you play in some squad/clan thing or just individually?
[7/5/2012 10:49:19 PM] Bushlurker: just me and my CWR2 tester pal usually
[7/5/2012 10:50:31 PM] Bushlurker: is it a real city you're copying?
[7/5/2012 10:50:53 PM] Snake Man: no just fictional one, no real reference.
[7/5/2012 10:51:35 PM] Bushlurker: oh well! Much easier!
[7/5/2012 10:52:04 PM] Snake Man: I guess most of all I need to figure out good "decoration theme" so to speak, what sort of decorations to add, is the dumbsters, junk, trees on the courtyard, fences etc.
[7/5/2012 10:52:46 PM] Bushlurker: just decide - organic or planned and take it from there
[7/5/2012 10:53:45 PM] Bushlurker: that decides overall shape
[7/5/2012 10:55:04 PM] Bushlurker: then you need to take into account location economics etc
[7/5/2012 10:55:07 PM] Snake Man: maybe I'll try to create some templates in v3 of different house "blocks".
[7/5/2012 10:56:03 PM] Bushlurker: If it's a planned city that's the way to go
[7/5/2012 10:56:29 PM] Bushlurker: repetitive blocks
[7/5/2012 10:57:02 PM] Bushlurker: avenues and streets all very similar
[7/5/2012 10:57:34 PM] Snake Man: you remember Opteryx big city for ArmA (1), umm what name terrain that was, already forgot :)  anyways I studied that and learnt few specific templates he used for house decorations.
[7/5/2012 10:57:43 PM] Bushlurker: people express individuality via small dressing
[7/5/2012 10:59:18 PM] Bushlurker: you basically have a2 style and generic eastern set of objects
[7/5/2012 11:01:05 PM] Bushlurker: crates boxes rubbish wheelbarrow mop & bucket etc
[7/5/2012 11:01:55 PM] Bushlurker: making a few custom signs is a good easy trick
[7/6/2012 11:19:50 PM] Snake Man: hello. did you test take on helicopters, did I read correctly that they had some 80km x 80km terrain there?
[7/6/2012 11:20:02 PM] Bushlurker: hi Snake
[7/6/2012 11:20:27 PM] Bushlurker: I've not got around to buying it yet,but yeah - big, but lower res terrains for sure
[7/6/2012 11:21:29 PM | Edited 11:21:46 PM] Snake Man: wonder if they fixed the bug/feature/issue which occurs even on 51km terrains that your character "shakes" as well as sun (or characters viewpoint, dunno which way to look at it). do you know this shaking?
[7/6/2012 11:28:46 PM] Snake Man: I think I'll get it just to check how they improved terrain handling ;)
[7/6/2012 11:47:11 PM] Bushlurker: I haven't really messed much with big terrains in A2
[7/6/2012 11:47:51 PM] Bushlurker: reputedly, Take On is quite pretty - theres several terrains in different sizes, plus a big City one
[7/6/2012 11:49:06 PM] Snake Man: are all your terrains in the 5km region?
[7/6/2012 11:49:58 PM] Bushlurker: all the arma 2 ones - yeah
[7/6/2012 11:50:22 PM] Bushlurker: I've done a 400kmx400km VBS2 one, but that was a multimap
[7/6/2012 11:50:50 PM] Snake Man: whats multimap?
[7/6/2012 11:51:01 PM] Bushlurker: with A2 I just mess around trying out different environments
[7/6/2012 11:51:18 PM] Bushlurker: multimap is a vbs2 thing - you make lots of terrains in a grid
[7/6/2012 11:51:38 PM] Bushlurker: mine was a 3x3 grid of 4096x4096 x 32m heightmaps
[7/6/2012 11:51:56 PM] Bushlurker: 131x131km per sub terrain
[7/6/2012 11:52:29 PM] Bushlurker: theyre complete in themselves - right down to individual .wrp files etc
[7/6/2012 11:52:59 PM] Bushlurker: but they're all subfolders in an overall map - and theres an overall config that pulls them all together into one big map
[7/6/2012 11:53:08 PM] Bushlurker: in game you get a 400x400km terrain
[7/6/2012 11:53:24 PM] Bushlurker: or you can load and play any of the 9 submaps individually
[7/6/2012 11:53:49 PM] Snake Man: wow that sounds excellent. of course "nobody needs such big terrain" but its better to have it and not need it ... ;)
[7/6/2012 11:53:49 PM] Bushlurker: its a "beta feature" in vbs2 just now
[7/6/2012 11:54:19 PM] Snake Man: Mmm imagining all VTE terrains in one multimap ... :D
[7/6/2012 11:55:03 PM] Snake Man: "Mum! I'm going into the bush to hunt Charlie, I'll be back in two weeks."
[7/6/2012 11:56:10 PM] Bushlurker: same constraints apply - that was a 32m cell set of heightmaps - looked like crap on the ground
[7/6/2012 11:56:33 PM] Snake Man: heh well yeah, my terrains have been 50m cells so far :)
[7/6/2012 11:57:35 PM] Snake Man: anyways, do you have info is all the take on helicopters terrain improvements (working 80km terrain support) going to be implemented on ArmA 3?
[7/7/2012 12:00:03 AM | Edited 12:00:26 AM] Bushlurker: no idea... I don't really know any of the A3 guys.... well, Mondkalb and Celery are on the A3 team I think
[7/7/2012 12:03:01 AM] Snake Man: ok I really hope there is better support, not that it sucks now but improvements are always nice. if takeon can do 80km terrain without anomalies on the infantry level etc, then great, we want that in ArmA 3 ;)
[7/7/2012 12:03:43 AM] Bushlurker: take on's for flyboys - though I'm sure you can land anywhere
[7/7/2012 12:04:21 AM] Bushlurker: the main A3 map will be 30km+
[7/7/2012 12:04:25 AM] Bushlurker: 34 I think
[7/7/2012 12:04:49 AM] Bushlurker: so if the basic standard has been raised, hopefully the upper limits will too
[7/7/2012 12:05:49 AM] Bushlurker: there'll be a new tools suite for sure - so at minimum I'm hoping for the 4096x4096 object placement bug fixed - that opens new possibilities
[7/7/2012 12:06:06 AM] Bushlurker: and if the new engine can cope with biggies better then we're sorted
[7/7/2012 12:07:52 AM] Snake Man: wait, what 4096 object placement bug?
[7/7/2012 12:08:19 AM] Bushlurker: V3 PE bug
[7/7/2012 12:08:24 AM] Bushlurker: visitor
[7/7/2012 12:08:52 AM] Bushlurker: with 4096 heightmaps theres often a problem placing objects in the bottom right quarter of the map
[7/7/2012 12:09:14 AM] Bushlurker: you place an object and then you can't select it or manipulate it any more
[7/7/2012 12:09:21 AM] Bushlurker: vis "loses" it
[7/7/2012 12:09:32 AM] Snake Man: but is it still saved in the PEW?
[7/7/2012 12:09:47 AM] Bushlurker: yes - but once its down its down....
[7/7/2012 12:10:01 AM] Bushlurker: not sure if it appears in bludozer or ingame ok
[7/7/2012 12:10:13 AM] Bushlurker: theres been a lot of complaints about it
[7/7/2012 12:10:31 AM] Bushlurker: thats why 4096x4096 gets avoided except by flyboy mappers
[7/7/2012 12:11:18 AM] Bushlurker: it seems to be an intermittent problem
[7/7/2012 12:11:22 AM] Snake Man: so only in bottom right quarter, not upper (which is the highest range in coordinates)?
[7/7/2012 12:11:45 AM] Bushlurker: search the bis terrain threads - you should turn up a problem or two
[7/7/2012 12:12:10 AM] Bushlurker: seems to be bottom right quarter if I remember correctly
[7/7/2012 12:12:40 AM] Bushlurker: I've never used a 4096x4096 in A2
[7/7/2012 12:13:08 AM] Snake Man: ok. I had some RPT errors and even crashes on top-right-quarter on large terrains.
[7/7/2012 12:13:39 AM] Bushlurker: could be top right - yeah
[7/7/2012 12:14:58 AM] Snake Man: btw changing gears, whats in your opinion is the greatest user made terrain as of now, feel free to name yours, I wont hold it against you? :) (I'm sort of looking for inspiration, comparison, learning etc).
[7/7/2012 12:15:21 AM] Bushlurker: take a look at Jakerods "Zernovo"
[7/7/2012 12:15:33 AM] Bushlurker: it won the recent terrainmakers contest hands down
[7/7/2012 12:16:47 AM] Snake Man: ah, okay, thanks. I have v1.0 hopefully thats the latest release. will check it out.
[7/7/2012 12:17:57 AM] Bushlurker: my own stuff? - I'm quite pleased with my CWR2 Everon & Malden - though Malden is still a "beta".... with overres sat maps and custom veg they look nice on the ground... all custom groundtextures too... I think theres 12 or 14 different ones on Everon if you look closely
[7/7/2012 12:19:31 AM] Snake Man: good old malden, I still remember summer of 2001 when playing OFP demo :D
[7/7/2012 12:20:58 AM] Bushlurker: current one in CWR2 is a beta.... I've got an almost finished update if I ever get a chance to finish it....
[7/7/2012 12:21:00 AM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/CWR2/NewMalden_screenshots/NewMalden_03.PNG
[7/7/2012 12:21:55 AM] Snake Man: beautiful, good work.
[7/7/2012 12:22:31 AM] Snake Man: btw how did you swap out the forests into individual tree models?
[7/7/2012 12:25:17 AM] Bushlurker: only the periphery of the forest is 1:1 copy placement from the original OFP positions
[7/7/2012 12:25:39 AM] Bushlurker: once you're 5 m or so into the forest - nobody can remember exactly where each tree was
[7/7/2012 12:25:45 AM] Bushlurker: at the edges is a different matter
[7/7/2012 12:26:01 AM] Bushlurker: everybody has their old well remembered favourite bush or tree
[7/7/2012 12:26:06 AM] Bushlurker: so they're all there
[7/7/2012 12:26:21 AM] Bushlurker: every rock n tree
[7/7/2012 12:29:26 AM] Snake Man: ok cool.
yeah I have tons of learning to do, been out from the game a whole year now and forgotten tons of stuff, time to read my own wiki again hehe. I'm going to check out zernovo today as you recommended.
[7/7/2012 12:30:10 AM] Bushlurker: its very impressive at ground level - very well put together.... feels like a real place
[7/7/2012 12:30:27 AM] Snake Man: I remember his terrains were really nice in OFP.
[7/7/2012 12:32:01 AM] Snake Man: and most excellent as it doesn't need any addons. seems like many of these guys nowadays add Opteryx buildings, Berghoff african foliage etc. of course the brg foliage is kind of special as there is no such thing in ArmA 2 but anyways.
[7/7/2012 12:33:46 AM] Snake Man: btw what I also meant by learning is specifically World Tools, I did take a quick look at it previously but I didn't get to do anything with it. now I'm planning on making good use of it, learn it inside out.
[7/7/2012 12:34:22 AM] Bushlurker: I'd only bother with the Forest tool - which IS really handy
[7/7/2012 12:34:41 AM] Bushlurker: the "internal areas" of the CWR2 forests were done using that
[7/7/2012 12:34:55 AM] Bushlurker: does nice random placement of any mix of veg you like
[7/7/2012 12:36:48 AM] Snake Man: did you say that you never figured out the non-vegetation object placement features (like fences and pre-fab type things)?
[7/7/2012 12:38:38 AM] Bushlurker: nope - never used it - don't know anybody else who figured it out
[7/7/2012 12:38:57 AM] Bushlurker: except shezan himself - but he wrote it so he should know
[7/7/2012 12:39:27 AM] Snake Man: hehe okay. we'll I'll definitely take a stab at it, vegetation first and then to see if I figure out the other parts.
[7/7/2012 2:23:01 AM] Snake Man: just checked out zernovo. drove car through it from two sides, looks real nice.
[7/7/2012 2:24:26 AM] Bushlurker: its pretty
[7/7/2012 2:24:33 AM] Bushlurker: great at ground level
[7/7/2012 2:24:48 AM] Snake Man: was that 5km terrain?
[7/7/2012 2:26:18 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - that was the competition max size
[7/7/2012 2:31:45 AM] Snake Man: I was wondering if you could help me learn about the decorations and overall design of the "details" for terrain. basically I'd like to improve my 51km desert.
[7/7/2012 2:34:17 AM] Bushlurker: well once the houses and fences and walls are all down, usually I just look around and add stuff that would be there, like dustbins & wheelie bins... maybe a garbage model under them
[7/7/2012 2:35:30 AM] Bushlurker: then in backyards I use stuff like old crates and wheelbarrows, buckets and mops, the chopped woodpile and axe and chopping block models - maybe kids see-saws... all that sort of small stuff - mostly in back yards
[7/7/2012 2:36:35 AM] Bushlurker: you can use the Avenue script to string out objects along the roads - regular stuff like lampposts or whatever, or add randomness for maybe some occasional roadside veg
[7/7/2012 2:37:34 AM] Bushlurker: theres a few different garbage piles you can sneak in here and there
[7/7/2012 2:38:28 AM] Bushlurker: for more industrial areas theres a few different pallet stacks, stacks of pipes and timber - quite a few things you can scatter about
[7/7/2012 2:40:23 AM] Snake Man: okay, those are good tips, thanks. I'll need to test out some city-block designs to see how they look ingame. that alone would help alot.
[7/7/2012 2:41:38 AM] Bushlurker: if its a "planned" type city then blocks is the way to go - they may look similar, so you try to add differences with the small stuff
[7/7/2012 2:42:04 AM] Bushlurker: copy - rotate 90 and paste..... stuff like that
[7/7/2012 2:52:35 AM] Snake Man: just tested Jakerod's other terrain the moscniy something, was looking nice and peaceful too.
[7/7/2012 2:53:13 AM] Snake Man: one thing I noticed difference on bis terrains is that I dont think he used road smoothing script, there was some bumps on the roads. not a big deal of course but just an observation.
[7/7/2012 2:54:10 AM] Bushlurker: I haven't actually seen the other one
[7/7/2012 2:59:05 AM] Snake Man: I'm reading your terrain readmes, you're suggesting the bis town generator. wonder if there would be any intelligent logic in the code to help create city designs, or is it just plain random splatter...
[7/7/2012 2:59:45 AM] Bushlurker: fairly random I think.... only works with  OA models
[7/7/2012 2:59:59 AM] Bushlurker: think its basically configurable size, etc
[7/7/2012 3:00:55 AM] Bushlurker: easy enough to try - its an editor module
[7/7/2012 3:01:08 AM] Bushlurker: should work on any terrain
[7/7/2012 3:07:59 AM] Snake Man: it seems to work nice, I'm not familiar with OA buildings but that town generator even seems to place fences around buildings which is very nice in my opinion. that script is well worth to study.
[7/7/2012 3:12:49 AM] Bushlurker: I pondered the idea of some sort of script which would capture all the objects positions once the generator does its stuff
[7/7/2012 3:13:19 AM] Bushlurker: I found a script somewhere on the forums that would capture the name and coords of all objects in a given area
[7/7/2012 3:13:48 AM] Bushlurker: so you could generate a town - capture all the object names and positions then make an objects import file for visitor
[7/7/2012 3:14:07 AM] Bushlurker: never got that idea to work but I bet it could be done
[7/7/2012 3:14:30 AM] Snake Man: is there some clipboard scripting command, can stuff from mission inserted into clipboard?
[7/7/2012 3:14:41 AM] Bushlurker: I dunno
[7/7/2012 3:14:52 AM] Bushlurker: well outside my area of expertise
[7/7/2012 3:15:35 AM] Snake Man: in ArmA the map 3de used some external program for capturing the stuff. now we have some lib things too I think. need to check them out.
[7/7/2012 3:16:07 AM] Snake Man: of course simple clipboard command would be great. but maybe there is some limitations (as people have coded these lib things etc).
[7/7/2012 3:23:30 AM] Bushlurker: ok mate
[7/7/2012 3:23:32 AM] Bushlurker: c ya
[7/7/2012 3:23:41 AM] Snake Man: cu
[7/10/2012 3:09:43 AM] Snake Man: hello, hows things?
[7/10/2012 3:43:10 AM] Bushlurker: hi! howsit goin' ?
[7/10/2012 3:45:20 AM] Snake Man: good thanks, testing some terrains, installing and testing them, weeding through all that need addons (even though readme doesnt say nothing hehe). many nice terrains out there indeed.
[7/10/2012 3:45:59 AM] Snake Man: hey I wanted to ask about th summer vegetation you did. was there replacement version of it, so we could switch chernarus (and zernovo etc user made ones) to summer lush theme?
[7/10/2012 3:47:33 AM] Bushlurker: yeah.... theres a plug and play auto-replacement... auto replaces all A2 veg with summer - regardless of terrain.... for Cherno only, it also replaces the actual sat layer with a summer one as well
[7/10/2012 3:48:23 AM] Snake Man: hmm chernarus only, so its like modified chernarus.wrp ?
[7/10/2012 3:48:59 AM] Bushlurker: data layers I think
[7/10/2012 3:49:04 AM] Bushlurker: Beton did that part
[7/10/2012 3:49:53 AM] Snake Man: I downloaded the summer vegetation for terrain makers, whats the name of the replacement addon? or do you have even the link at hand?
[7/10/2012 3:50:20 AM] Bushlurker: I did a post about it recently...... hold on.....
[7/10/2012 3:50:58 AM] Bushlurker: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?136531-Setting-up-summerplants-v1-0-in-p-drive&p=2180474&viewfull=1#post2180474
[7/10/2012 3:52:58 AM] Snake Man: ah excellent I found from that link this link: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?97347-Summervegetation
thanks man, just what I was looking for :)
[7/10/2012 3:57:29 AM] Snake Man: hmm where is this satellite layer replacement, or was it included in the summer vegetation replacement?
[7/10/2012 3:57:36 AM] Snake Man: (still downloading it).
[7/10/2012 4:09:21 AM] Bushlurker: I think with the replacement one it kicks in automatically with Chernarus, so it must be in there somewhere
[7/10/2012 4:09:54 AM] Bushlurker: I'm not too sure about that addon structure - Beton did most of the work, I really just contributed textures
[7/10/2012 4:12:16 AM] Snake Man: ok will take a look after that dead slow download finishes (300kb/s). btw did you check out McNools aliabad?
is that very detailed terrain because it felt like one big roller coaster when driving a car there?
[7/10/2012 4:13:13 AM] Bushlurker: McNools' stuff is pretty good! yeah...
[7/10/2012 4:13:44 AM] Snake Man: no I mean is it some sick 2m cell size thing, or is hes heightmap just all over the place?
[7/10/2012 4:14:06 AM] Bushlurker: not sure of the exact stats of his maps, but they're quite well detailed... sat images are well done
[7/10/2012 4:14:24 AM] Bushlurker: could be a 5m cell - not sure
[7/10/2012 4:15:04 AM] Snake Man: driving a hummer there felt really rough ride and sometimes even had to slow down a lot to navigate through the ups and downs :)
[7/10/2012 4:34:23 AM] Snake Man: wow chernarus summer theme looks excellent, really nice addon, thanks man! :D
[7/10/2012 4:35:21 AM] Bushlurker: very much a Betton addon really..... it was the first little addon I was really involved in for A2... Beton really did do most of the work
[7/10/2012 4:37:06 AM] Bushlurker: I'd done quite a bit of work towards an updated version... ended up using the textures for the CWR2 summer veg... if you've seen the CWR2 islands you'll have seen that... it's a sort of "subset" of the full A2 selection
[7/10/2012 4:39:20 AM] Snake Man: I need to get the latest CWR2 stuff actually, haven't checked it out since... well dunno, prolly since I did some campaign work, cant even remember if it was arma (1) or what ;)
[7/10/2012 4:53:20 AM] Bushlurker: its a big D/L... 5 terrains I think, god knows how many units, weapons and vehicles....
[7/10/2012 4:53:39 AM] Bushlurker: still only a beta demo release, but it's pretty complete now
[7/10/2012 4:53:51 AM] Bushlurker: next release will be the final thing I hope
[7/10/2012 4:54:29 AM] Snake Man: okay. btw I'm trying world tools now, what was that .fgo file you sent to me earlier, how do I use/import it?
[7/10/2012 4:54:50 AM] Bushlurker: did I sent you a file?
[7/10/2012 4:54:58 AM] Bushlurker: can't remember...... :)
[7/10/2012 4:55:01 AM] Bushlurker: hmmm
[7/10/2012 4:55:03 AM] Snake Man: WT_OA_veg.fgo
[7/10/2012 4:55:11 AM] Bushlurker: aaah
[7/10/2012 4:56:21 AM] Bushlurker: right... eeeh - I think you can import that via menu - Fence Generator - Import Object Template?
[7/10/2012 4:56:55 AM] Snake Man: ah, object management and import from there, gotcha, thanks.
[7/10/2012 4:57:09 AM] Snake Man: was that file made by you then?
is there any more, that was only few trees?
[7/10/2012 4:58:17 AM] Snake Man: or was it only "few" in A2OA section :)
[7/10/2012 4:58:24 AM] Snake Man: cant really tell as I'm new to world tools.
[7/10/2012 4:58:48 AM] Bushlurker: I think it just covers trees & bushes
[7/10/2012 10:52:31 PM] Snake Man: hi Bushlurker, I just tested all your terrains, very nice work :)
[7/10/2012 11:12:54 PM] Bushlurker: the geotypical ones?...... they were really just me learning in public :D
[7/10/2012 11:13:54 PM] Snake Man: yeah I installed all that I could find, I tested the first (in alphabets hehe forgot the name) earlier and then was it the ireland something terrain that had objects, nice one, the others were objectless I believe (quick helo fly over).
[7/10/2012 11:19:07 PM] Bushlurker: yeah - they were mostly just texturing demos
[7/10/2012 11:28:31 PM] Snake Man: hey do you remember any 20km+ terrains out there, I remember it was Commander1985 or someone else (hehe) who made some large (could it have been 40km) terrain with objects and all. have you seen any or that specific one?
[7/10/2012 11:38:03 PM] Bushlurker: eeeh.... can't really remember
[7/10/2012 11:52:07 PM] Bushlurker: theres been so many good terrains.....
[7/10/2012 11:52:25 PM] Bushlurker: Old Bear and the french clan Ado have done some good ones too
[7/10/2012 11:52:34 PM] Snake Man: I'm unpacking ArmA (1) addons now to see if it was there :)
[7/10/2012 11:52:42 PM] Bushlurker: pretty sure Commander did one.....
[7/10/2012 11:52:56 PM] Bushlurker: I think Armaholic has almost all terrains released
[7/10/2012 11:53:51 PM] Snake Man: yeah commander did the ovaron, but I don't believe its that one. anyways, just popped into my mind. all in all, would you say arma2 terrains have been in the average of 5km sizes with the few strange 10km ones?
[7/10/2012 11:57:10 PM] Bushlurker: Icebreakr does 10x10's
[7/10/2012 11:58:42 PM] Bushlurker: I think Robster did a 20x20km
[7/11/2012 12:00:14 AM] Snake Man: damn, now this mystery terrain name really got to bother me :) gotta search bis forums, maybe it comes up from there.
[7/11/2012 12:01:32 AM] Snake Man: also it definitely will come up from my arma addons, if it really was arma terrain. anyways, I'll find it :)
[7/11/2012 12:02:37 AM] Snake Man: but yeah I must say that looking some terrains yesterday and today, the arma2 selection starts to look quite impressive.
I really love arma2 engine for terrain, the water is also so nice that its transparent etc. I cant wait for arma3 diving stuff :)
[7/11/2012 12:07:04 AM] Bushlurker: arma 2 stuff is pretty..... :)
[7/11/2012 12:07:38 AM] Snake Man: how do you feel about the arma3 diving, the whole new "world" that opens up for us terrain makers?
[7/11/2012 12:28:47 AM] Bushlurker: something else to model I suppose :D
[7/11/2012 12:28:53 AM] Bushlurker: could be fun
[7/11/2012 12:29:47 AM] Snake Man: yeah wonder if those DEM services have underwater elevations also?
[7/11/2012 12:30:20 AM] Bushlurker: bathymetric data.....
[7/11/2012 12:30:31 AM] Bushlurker: google earth uses it
[7/11/2012 12:31:02 AM] Bushlurker: I think theres some available for download... dunno about resolution or coverage though
[7/11/2012 3:57:09 AM] Snake Man: I'm still adding more terrains to my mod dir's, amazing amount of realestate available now :)
[7/11/2012 3:58:30 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - theres a ton of good terrains
[7/15/2012 12:37:46 AM] Snake Man: hello, long time no see :)
[7/15/2012 12:39:21 AM] Bushlurker: hi!
yeah - was away on a 1600 mile round trip down to the BiSim UK office.... so I've been AWOL lately
[7/15/2012 12:39:39 AM] Snake Man: wow. job opportunity there?
[7/15/2012 12:40:58 AM] Bushlurker: I work for them already, but I live in Scotland, and the office is away down in the south of England @ Farnborough airbase, so every now and then I like to "report in" - they pay my travel n stuff so its like a wee holiday
[7/15/2012 12:41:31 AM] Snake Man: oh already. what you do there, terrain stuff or?
[7/15/2012 12:41:55 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - VBS2 terrains... I'm the only terrain guy in the UK branch
[7/15/2012 12:43:07 AM] Snake Man: I've been toying with the idea to ask to work for bis/bia/whatever, but always feel like "I'm not good enough" although at least on motivation level I cant think of anyone else who has achieved what I have. how did you find the job, did they call you or did you apply and how "easy" it was to get there and was their expectations of your skills/etc what YOU expected etc?
[7/15/2012 12:44:45 AM] Bushlurker: they picked me out of the community - emailed me asking for a cv and a portfolio
[7/15/2012 12:45:51 AM] Bushlurker: UK office is new, so they've been trying to be clever..... VBS2 v2.0 is coming...... right now VBS2 1.6 IS basically Arma 1 - it even includes the whole of Arma 1, Sahrani - the lot
[7/15/2012 12:46:08 AM] Bushlurker: 2.0 will basically BE Arma 2
[7/15/2012 12:46:19 AM] Bushlurker: and it'll include cherno, takistan, etc
[7/15/2012 12:46:49 AM] Bushlurker: so since the UK office were setting up from scratch - they figured, v2.0 is Arma 2 - we'll recruit Arma 2 guys
[7/15/2012 12:46:52 AM] Snake Man: wait vbs2 is coming... hasn't that been out for ages? I cant even remember anyone talking about vbs(1) anymore.
[7/15/2012 12:47:00 AM] Bushlurker: yeah
[7/15/2012 12:47:10 AM] Bushlurker: vbs2 1.60 is the current version
[7/15/2012 12:47:18 AM] Snake Man: aaah, sorry ;)
[7/15/2012 12:47:39 AM] Bushlurker: but next release due soon is vbs2, but version 2.0 - major upgrade - completely new engine version
[7/15/2012 12:47:54 AM] Bushlurker: the Arma 2 engine, basically
[7/15/2012 12:48:27 AM] Snake Man: do they make you work hard and is the money worth the workload then?
[7/15/2012 12:48:40 AM] Snake Man: also, do you have "normal" job on the side too?
[7/15/2012 12:49:09 AM] Bushlurker: supershaders, multimaterials, parallax ground textures..... all new stuff to the old VBS2 guys, but familiar to the A2 community now
[7/15/2012 12:49:56 AM] Bushlurker: nah..... I'm fulltime on a full time salary - I just work from home
[7/15/2012 12:50:23 AM] Bushlurker: money is good
[7/15/2012 12:50:24 AM] Snake Man: how do you "See arma2" now when you get paid to edit it, has it lost its "fun factor"? :)
[7/15/2012 12:50:50 AM] Snake Man: and how do you separate the paid money work editing and this "community editing"? :)
[7/15/2012 12:51:25 AM] Bushlurker: well - I'm currently making stuff for VBS2 1.60 - so its basically Arma 1 quality - a big step back from Arma 2 technically and visually - so it hasn't really "spoiled" arma 2 for me at all
[7/15/2012 12:51:43 AM] Bushlurker: and by the time VBS2 "becomes" Arma 2 - arma 3 will be out
[7/15/2012 12:52:36 AM] Bushlurker: the "game" will always be one step ahead..... thats how they test the engine ;)
[7/15/2012 12:52:41 AM] Bushlurker: on us community guys
[7/15/2012 12:54:04 AM] Snake Man: would there somewhere in bis/etc universe be a job for guy like me who can do everything good but nothing great, if you know what I mean. or is it always that they are looking for one specific skill, for example in you terrains?
[7/15/2012 12:55:44 AM] Bushlurker: well they hired Mondkalb recently..... he's a classic community Jack of all trades type guy
[7/15/2012 12:56:24 AM] Bushlurker: they hired about 2/3 of the CWR2 guys and about half of the project reality guys
[7/15/2012 1:44:04 AM] Snake Man: did you see this arma3 focus groups thing?
[7/15/2012 1:52:25 AM] Bushlurker: nope
[7/15/2012 1:52:50 AM] Bushlurker: whats that about?
[7/15/2012 1:53:48 AM] Snake Man: umm sorry I don't have link at hand now, but they ar etaking small number of people into bis CZ offices to QA test arma3 for three days I believe.
[7/15/2012 1:54:11 AM] Snake Man: ah, found it easily:
http://www.bistudio.com/english/home/news/projects/317-arma-3-focus-groups
[7/15/2012 2:00:49 AM] Bushlurker: haha....
[7/15/2012 2:01:15 AM] Bushlurker: they have Milo doing it..... I know him a little... he's a terrain guy too
[7/15/2012 2:01:30 AM] Bushlurker: looks cool - there'll be big interest in that I'm sure
[7/15/2012 2:01:33 AM] Bushlurker: good PR too
[7/15/2012 2:02:02 AM] Snake Man: I sent email apply there and just got reply, he wanted to know some basic details of my playing habits etc.
I don't think nothing comes out of it, but what the hell, email doesn't cost me anything so why not.
[7/15/2012 2:02:22 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - why not?
[7/15/2012 2:04:07 AM] Snake Man: I guess it would be kind of cool to QA test it and give feedback.
[7/15/2012 2:06:23 AM] Bushlurker: nobody asked ME to try arma 3  ;(
[7/15/2012 2:06:30 AM] Bushlurker: :D
[7/15/2012 2:06:39 AM] Snake Man: about terrains. I tested L3DT more thoroughly now and was quite surprised of what it can do. I loved the terrain editing feature with that big ball thing. I went and lowered the seabed on my terrains (did not import heightmap ingame yet though).
[7/15/2012 2:07:55 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - its a great program! and thats only the heightmap part.... wait till you start to get the hang of the mask and texture making climates stuff too....
[7/15/2012 2:08:50 AM] Snake Man: is the free version capable of doing the heightmap editing up to 4096 meshes and the commercial version is only having the mask/texture etc features, what I mean is, with free version I can do all my heightmap editing?
[7/15/2012 2:09:12 AM] Bushlurker: free version has it all
[7/15/2012 2:09:30 AM] Bushlurker: limits on heightmap is 2048 - more than enough for us
[7/15/2012 2:09:51 AM] Bushlurker: but limit on texturing is 4096 which is no use at all really
[7/15/2012 2:10:04 AM] Snake Man: oh 2048, well as you said, enough for us indeed. my 51km terrain is low res 1024 grid with 50m cell size heh.
[7/15/2012 2:10:10 AM] Bushlurker: whereas full version will go to 30kx30k if you want
[7/15/2012 2:10:40 AM] Bushlurker: you can get a 3month free demo for the asking of the full version
[7/15/2012 2:11:08 AM] Snake Man: btw I've been meaning to ask this for few days... my PMC 51km Desert terrain is still heavily WIP. was wondering if you could help me with IDEAS about where and what to improve, or how to improve actually?
[7/15/2012 2:11:46 AM] Bushlurker: let l3dt suggest things ;)
[7/15/2012 2:12:22 AM] Bushlurker: like - feed in your heightmap - run the water operations with salinity=true to generate water and salinity maps
[7/15/2012 2:12:51 AM] Snake Man: heh no I wasn't talking about heightmap, just basic arma2 terrain stuff, covering everything :)
[7/15/2012 2:13:11 AM] Bushlurker: then at the attributes map stage.... co to climate manager - copy the "Temperate (full) climate......
[7/15/2012 2:14:14 AM] Bushlurker: disable all the surface types except cliff face, grass, lush grass dry grass and steep grass - then run the attribute generating routine
[7/15/2012 2:14:22 AM] Bushlurker: look @ results
[7/15/2012 2:14:27 AM] Bushlurker: its a desert
[7/15/2012 2:14:36 AM] Bushlurker: but you gave it a water table anyway
[7/15/2012 2:14:52 AM] Bushlurker: watertable is like an imaginary layer of water @ 0m
[7/15/2012 2:14:59 AM] Bushlurker: your land is above it
[7/15/2012 2:15:16 AM] Bushlurker: further or closer to it as your heightmap goes up or down
[7/15/2012 2:15:32 AM] Bushlurker: that means some areas could be classed as "wetter" than others
[7/15/2012 2:15:42 AM] Bushlurker: l3dt will find them
[7/15/2012 2:15:55 AM] Bushlurker: and assign the "lush grass" attribute there
[7/15/2012 2:15:59 AM] Bushlurker: its a desert
[7/15/2012 2:16:28 AM] Bushlurker: but l3dt analysed it and decided where oases would NATURALLY occur on that particular landscape
[7/15/2012 2:16:46 AM] Bushlurker: if you put an oasis at those points it'll loook 100% natural
[7/15/2012 2:17:12 AM] Bushlurker: same for the "dry" grass areas but opposite
[7/15/2012 2:17:19 AM] Bushlurker: they indicate the driest areas
[7/15/2012 2:17:29 AM] Bushlurker: windblown sand dune texture for those areas
[7/15/2012 2:18:08 AM] Bushlurker: they'll look naturally occuring too
[7/15/2012 2:18:34 AM] Bushlurker: its a great way to automatically make any heightmap pretty naturally terxtured
[7/15/2012 2:18:52 AM] Bushlurker: but looking at what it puts where can give you ideas about other stuff
[7/15/2012 2:19:08 AM] Bushlurker: paths link oasis to oasis  - avoiding slopes
[7/15/2012 2:19:28 AM] Bushlurker: you have "slopes" marked out by the "steep grass" areas
[7/15/2012 2:20:10 AM] Bushlurker: of course theyre all not grass - thats just the name.... later you can add in different deserty materials before you go to the texture stage, but here at the planning stagge it doesnt matter
[7/15/2012 2:20:57 AM] Bushlurker: so l3dt can autolocate your focal points and suggest probable transit routes between them
[7/15/2012 2:21:10 AM] Bushlurker: and it'll all "fit in" with the surrounding landscape
[7/15/2012 2:22:19 AM] Snake Man: wow, ok let me copy paste all that done for safe keeping, good tips/guide, thanks man :)
[7/15/2012 2:22:35 AM] Snake Man: actually I'm going to try it right now...
[7/15/2012 2:23:23 AM] Bushlurker: thats exactly how I did my little carraigdubh irish terrain.... except I did actually use grass - plus I then added field systems
[7/15/2012 2:23:43 AM] Bushlurker: but the naturally occuring wooded areas are the buits that showed up "lush"
[7/15/2012 2:24:33 AM] Bushlurker: I placed markers where I wanted focal points - then joined em up - avoiding l3dt marked "slope" areas so the roads meander a lot like they would on that landscape
[7/15/2012 2:28:13 AM] Bushlurker: plus of course - the image that l3dt makes for you to look at the colours and analyse is exportable, so you can use it as an actual mask, and even as a sat image - get it in Vis - even ingame..... the landscape is all those primary colours.... easy to place approapriate stuff, lay roads avoiding slopes etc
[7/15/2012 2:29:21 AM] Bushlurker: eventually you're done..... so you dump that as the sat layer - maybe you've added buildings and veg and road positions to the mask image now.... using that original l3dt one as a base
[7/15/2012 2:29:27 AM] Bushlurker: so - and this is the good bit.....
[7/15/2012 2:30:14 AM] Bushlurker: at that point - you can load up your l3dt project, and import your modified and enhanced mask imageas an l3dt attribute layer
[7/15/2012 2:31:54 AM] Bushlurker: so when you then continue to the texturing stage if - for example, you'd laid your roads in Vis - exported an emf of them and added it into your mask layer with a colour - say blue - keyed to "gravel" for a road underlay... then - in l3dt you'll now have a attribute layer with blue roads
[7/15/2012 2:32:23 AM] Bushlurker: same with houses for house underlay - I usually use same colour/texture
[7/15/2012 2:32:44 AM] Bushlurker: l3dt does the natural part - you export - add the built part and reimport
[7/15/2012 2:32:49 AM] Bushlurker: then progress to texture
[7/15/2012 2:33:15 AM] Bushlurker: create a gravel material, add it into your climate and assign it to blue
[7/15/2012 2:33:43 AM] Bushlurker: when you get to the texture stage l3dt will shade in a natural looking road network right where it would be
[7/15/2012 2:34:00 AM] Bushlurker: saves a lot of messing in photoshop adding roads etc
[7/15/2012 2:34:15 AM] Bushlurker: cause roads are objects - disappear at distance
[7/15/2012 2:34:35 AM] Bushlurker: so you need to actually paint em on the sat layer so you see them at further distances
[7/15/2012 2:34:41 AM] Bushlurker: same with runways
[7/15/2012 2:35:17 AM] Bushlurker: being able to basically feed l3dt a mask and then get it to make a decent sat texture is a massive bonus
[7/15/2012 2:35:40 AM] Bushlurker: and the full version will bang out 20480x20480 or even bigger
[7/15/2012 2:39:41 AM] Snake Man: l3dt is able to rescale heightmap, for example my 51km terrain is 1024 grid and 50m cell size, do you think it would work in-game if I bump it up to 2048 and 25m?
[7/15/2012 2:40:18 AM] Snake Man: AND if so, how can I add some bumps and lumps into the terrain, was there some erosion feature in l3dt or something?
[7/15/2012 2:40:31 AM] Bushlurker: it'd be fine, and it would allow for better detail
[7/15/2012 2:41:11 AM] Bushlurker: might be better with wilbur
[7/15/2012 2:41:19 AM] Bushlurker: it has some pretty good tools
[7/15/2012 2:42:12 AM] Bushlurker: like though you can large scale brush-add perlin noise in l3dt
[7/15/2012 2:42:22 AM] Bushlurker: gotta be careful though
[7/15/2012 2:43:55 AM] Bushlurker: in wilbur you can select areas and do quite a few different noise and erosion things - theres a whole bunch of parameters which are basically straight copies of the Leveller GForge plugin
[7/15/2012 2:45:07 AM] Snake Man: yeah wilbur is familiar from good old WrpTool days, gotta give that a try. in my example 51km terrain I cant change too drastically the landscape as I already have cities/villages/roads there.
[7/15/2012 2:45:31 AM] Bushlurker: gotta be careful, yeah
[7/15/2012 2:46:29 AM] Bushlurker: you could load an overlay in l3dt so you know where they are, then brush noise around the areas you want in the 3d view
[7/15/2012 2:46:38 AM] Snake Man: hmm the scale of texture maps were locked with the heightmap, I mean I can get 8192 and then 16k something and next 32k. I cant get it to save 20480, right?
[7/15/2012 2:47:33 AM] Bushlurker: scale doesnt come into the equation with l3dt until the attributes map stage
[7/15/2012 2:47:41 AM] Bushlurker: at that point you choose your res
[7/15/2012 2:48:05 AM] Bushlurker: 20480x20480 will work fine, though its big so it'll take a while
[7/15/2012 2:48:37 AM] Bushlurker: type in the figure you want
[7/15/2012 2:49:02 AM] Snake Man: hmm maybe its because my initial setup was 1024 grid and 50m cell... or something. well have to fiddle with that one. I'm not generating that 16k texture map.
[7/15/2012 2:49:16 AM] Bushlurker: l3dt calculates it as "x heightmap cell size, but you can type that in
[7/15/2012 2:49:33 AM] Bushlurker: like - you could have 11x if it gives you the res you want
[7/15/2012 2:50:21 AM] Snake Man: ah okay then, I'll try to type it in.
[7/15/2012 2:51:02 AM] Bushlurker: so - you're a 2048 heightmap - 10x should give you a 20480x20480
[7/15/2012 2:52:09 AM] Bushlurker: but do a low res one first - 4096 or something when you're just looking to see where the areas fall... then when you only have the surfaces you want showing ok - crank up to the final resolution you want and generate the full res version
[7/15/2012 2:52:39 AM] Snake Man: yeah that 16k seems to take several minutes to process.
[7/15/2012 2:53:18 AM] Bushlurker: it can take half an hour or longer for big res stuff
[7/15/2012 2:53:40 AM] Bushlurker: test small first
[7/15/2012 2:57:03 AM] Snake Man: can we talk about roads (mask/texture), when you export roads to EMF, umm how do you separate roads only, do you get them out in the blue background which is then easy to cut off in photoshop etc?
[7/15/2012 2:57:45 AM] Bushlurker: I change the elevation colour range settings in vis so its a plain white background
[7/15/2012 2:59:38 AM] Bushlurker: then export allowing for the blueedge - then crop it off in P/shop and use colour range select - select white - inverse selection - expand by 2px and fill with whatever colour you want on the mask for "general purpose gravel" - then invert selection again and hit delete to get rid of the white background and you're done ready to overlay on your mask
[7/15/2012 3:00:59 AM] Snake Man: ok I gotta try that asap, sounds like a great tip. thanks again.
[7/15/2012 3:01:12 AM] Snake Man: btw did you read mondkalbs terrain tutorial about blue edge?
[7/15/2012 3:01:32 AM] Snake Man: unless I did something completely wrong... it doesnt work, his method of removing the blue edge.
[7/15/2012 3:02:12 AM] Bushlurker: blue edge is one heightmap groundcells worth of sat layer pixels
[7/15/2012 3:02:43 AM] Bushlurker: doesnt matter what size each cell represents - just how many there are
[7/15/2012 3:02:53 AM] Bushlurker: and how many sat layer pixels
[7/15/2012 3:02:55 AM] Bushlurker: so
[7/15/2012 3:03:40 AM] Bushlurker: a 2048 heightmap has 2048 cells - if you use a 20480x20480 sat & mask then theres 10 pixels for every heightmap one - so blue edge is 10
[7/15/2012 3:04:27 AM] Bushlurker: if you had a 2048x2048 heightmap and used a 10240x10240 there'd be 5 sat map pixels for every groundcell, so blue edge would be 5
[7/15/2012 3:04:52 AM] Bushlurker: you add that number to the size dimensions when you export the emf
[7/15/2012 3:05:18 AM] Bushlurker: so that 20480 with blue edge = 10 - you'd export a 20490x20490 emf
[7/15/2012 3:05:32 AM] Bushlurker: convert to png and load in photoshop and look close
[7/15/2012 3:05:51 AM] Bushlurker: it'll have a 10 pixel blue edge on the bottom and left edges
[7/15/2012 3:06:14 AM] Bushlurker: so use canvas resize to resize to 20480 - cutting off only those sides
[7/15/2012 3:07:55 AM] Snake Man: canvas resize, hmm.. let me check that one out..
[7/15/2012 3:14:20 AM] Bushlurker: theres a wee graphic - you can choose to "keep" top and right - that means you "lose" bottom and left - then crop to 20480x20480
[7/15/2012 3:14:45 AM] Bushlurker: its 10 px smaller - you lose the bottom and left 10 pixels
[7/15/2012 3:14:49 AM] Bushlurker: the blue ones
[7/15/2012 3:30:05 AM] Snake Man: ok got it,resize canvas and right amount of pixels. just took some time to figure it out, there was something wrong in my EMF resolution :)
[7/15/2012 3:30:23 AM] Snake Man: that anchor feature rules in PS.
[7/15/2012 3:34:52 AM] Snake Man: hmm but something is still off in my another test terrain.
grid is 2048
cell is 25
satmap is 8192
so should the exported EMF be then 4 pixels larger? ie grid/sat == pixels?
[7/15/2012 3:35:47 AM] Bushlurker: export emf of 8196x8196 - chop 4 in photoshop
[7/15/2012 3:36:34 AM] Snake Man: ok all good so far... now here comes the catch, why the blue edge in my EMF file is 8 pixels on left and the correct 4 pixels on bottom? :)
[7/15/2012 3:37:35 AM] Bushlurker: no idea
[7/15/2012 3:37:37 AM] Bushlurker: :D
[7/15/2012 3:37:53 AM] Bushlurker: is it the correct 8196x8196 ?
[7/15/2012 3:38:37 AM] Snake Man: yes 8196 x 8196.
[7/15/2012 3:39:04 AM] Bushlurker: very wierd
[7/15/2012 3:40:10 AM] Bushlurker: no idea
[7/15/2012 3:40:19 AM] Bushlurker: try again exporting etc I guess
[7/15/2012 3:40:25 AM] Bushlurker: always worked for me
[7/15/2012 3:42:04 AM] Snake Man: hmm yeah something weird going on with that one, will have to test it more later. but its good to know how to easily remove the blue edge with canvas resize.
[7/15/2012 3:50:06 AM] Snake Man: VTE has tons of those basic OFP 12.8km terrains just like you guys have CWR2 OFP terrains too. how did you choose the cell size when you ported them over, I mean how did you keep nogova bridge as is if you bumped up the details or do they automatically stay the same, I'm not totally familiar how beefing up the details work?
I'm wondering if I could do the same for VTE since all our terrains use the old 50m cell size which nowadays is dreaded.
[7/15/2012 3:59:46 AM] Bushlurker: 12.5 is the best you can go
[7/15/2012 3:59:53 AM] Bushlurker: 6.25 wont work in vis
[7/15/2012 4:19:44 AM] Snake Man: umm wait I'm confused, didn't yourself do 2m cell size terrains as test?
[7/15/2012 4:58:21 AM] Bushlurker: ah
[7/15/2012 4:58:26 AM] Bushlurker: missed u there
[7/15/2012 4:59:18 AM] Bushlurker: yeah..... but when porting terrains from 50m you need to keep in step or objects will get dislocated
[7/15/2012 4:59:29 AM] Bushlurker: so 50 > 25 > 12.5
[7/15/2012 4:59:50 AM] Bushlurker: usually 256x256x50 for ofp era terrains
[7/15/2012 5:00:19 AM] Bushlurker: uyou could go to a 512x512 with 25, or a 1024x1024x12.5 like cwr2
[7/15/2012 5:00:49 AM] Bushlurker: I would have made them 2048x2048x6.25 if I could but Vis won't accept 6.25
[7/15/2012 5:01:37 AM] Snake Man: okay. what software did you use to resize the heightmap, leveller or l3dt? and what happens arma2 ingame to the terrain when you do it, does it just go smoother and objects stay in place ok or?
[7/15/2012 5:20:58 AM] Bushlurker: whole point of using those stepdown multiples is that actual coords stay the same so missions are unaffected, all stuff is in same exact grid coords as before
[7/15/2012 5:21:50 AM] Bushlurker: when you resample it just adds more cells - it interpolates the new ones between the points of the old
[7/15/2012 5:22:01 AM] Bushlurker: so some stuff like roads need resmoothed
[7/15/2012 5:22:11 AM] Bushlurker: generally looks smoother
[7/15/2012 5:23:03 AM] Snake Man: ah okay then, sounds good. I might give that a try.
[7/15/2012 5:23:47 AM] Snake Man: I'm doing some sea beds now, gotta have some depth for arma3 diving ops ;)
[7/18/2012 4:30:56 AM] Snake Man: hey, how you doing today?
[7/18/2012 4:33:10 AM] Bushlurker: hi
[7/18/2012 4:33:40 AM] Bushlurker: good..... back to work after my weekend off
[7/18/2012 4:34:37 AM] Snake Man: heh yeah. hey I was reading your terrain beginners guide 1st edition, has there been updates / 2nd edition for this yet?
[7/18/2012 4:40:20 AM] Bushlurker: 'fraid not..... I got sortof sidetracked after the first part
[7/18/2012 4:40:51 AM] Bushlurker: then Mondkalb did a guide that at least briefly covered "all the rest" so I never bothered
[7/18/2012 4:41:31 AM] Snake Man: ah okay. well anyways there was some nice bits of info on it.
[7/18/2012 4:42:15 AM] Bushlurker: its a good starter for beginners - makes 'em look at the files instead of just using the provided ones as they stand
[7/18/2012 4:44:06 AM] Snake Man: btw where do you download DEM data usually, is there one single place to get it or is there various sites and methods (like google maps and whatnot)?
[7/18/2012 4:45:43 AM] Bushlurker: for srtm the google earth plugin is handy
[7/18/2012 4:45:58 AM] Bushlurker: you can get aster from the USGS portal I think
[7/18/2012 4:46:09 AM] Bushlurker: aster can be dodgy data though
[7/18/2012 4:46:38 AM] Bushlurker: both are directly downloadable for your chosen area from within global mapper
[7/18/2012 4:46:54 AM] Bushlurker: that came free with the vbs tools so I just use that normally
[7/18/2012 4:48:06 AM] Bushlurker: I'm pretty sure Jakerod told me..... think it was Jakerod anyway, that the free Q GIS can do the same thing
[7/18/2012 4:49:37 AM] Snake Man: global mapper, hmm okay. was there any completely free method?
[7/18/2012 4:49:51 AM] Bushlurker: Q GIS I think
[7/18/2012 4:50:05 AM] Snake Man: I guess free is always kind of fishy term, we always suggest people to use photoshop without giving second thought about its cost hehe.
[7/18/2012 4:50:07 AM] Bushlurker: quantum GIS - its free
[7/18/2012 4:50:55 AM] Snake Man: so global mapper itself downloads the data? and what about the google earth plugin, never heard of that before?
[7/18/2012 4:56:22 AM] Bushlurker: yeah.... in GM and Q GIS (I think) you can just set the view to the area you want then use the download option
[7/18/2012 4:57:45 AM] Bushlurker: the google earth plugin adds an overlay to the display that shows the grid of srtm tiles, along with a marker in the middle that you can click to download that tile
[7/18/2012 4:58:55 AM] Snake Man: ok, thanks for the info. I want to try that sometimes since I've never done detailed DEM terrain yet.
[7/18/2012 5:02:43 AM] Bushlurker: http://www.qgis.org/
[7/18/2012 5:03:48 AM] Bushlurker: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?65504-90m-CSI-SRTM-Data-Via-Google-Earth
[7/18/2012 5:04:33 AM] Bushlurker: if you have google earth installed, just doubleclick the .kmz file and the srtm overlay will install
[7/18/2012 5:04:55 AM] Bushlurker: Q GIS will require a little practise..... but I'm told its pretty good
[7/18/2012 5:31:44 AM] Snake Man: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Mondkalb%27s_Terrain_Tutorial#Creating_the_satmap
that 10pixel cropping doesnt work like he says, does it?
[7/18/2012 5:33:13 AM] Bushlurker: dunno
[7/18/2012 5:33:23 AM] Bushlurker: seems an odd way of going about things
[7/18/2012 5:34:07 AM] Snake Man: I tried it, doesnt work and I feel/know that it just wont work like that :)
[7/18/2012 5:40:45 AM] Bushlurker: it'll work ok, just seems an odd way of doing it
[7/18/2012 5:42:19 AM] Snake Man: really, hmm well maybe I need to try it again then, I tested and it didn't align properly. anyways your resize canvas seems like very nice way to do it.
[7/18/2012 5:42:43 AM] Bushlurker: seems easier to me, yeah
[7/18/2012 5:43:37 AM] Bushlurker: basically - he has a photoshop multi layer sat image "project file.... it's say 2560x2560
[7/18/2012 5:43:44 AM] Bushlurker: thats its canvas size
[7/18/2012 5:45:02 AM] Bushlurker: then he's exported a bunch of layers from Vis - allowed 10px for blue edge - so all thos individual layers files - say "veg", "roads" buildings images, etc - they're all 2570x2570
[7/18/2012 5:46:33 AM | Edited 5:46:39 AM] Bushlurker: so basically he's suggesting - open a 2570x2570 image - select all and copy - paste it as a new layer into the 2560x2560 image
[7/18/2012 5:46:45 AM] Bushlurker: its too big
[7/18/2012 5:46:49 AM] Bushlurker: 10px too big
[7/18/2012 5:47:56 AM] Bushlurker: if you align that layer with the top right of the main project images layers, the bottom and left 10px of the new layer will be "off the canvas" - invisible.... when you save the final image those bits will be ignored
[7/18/2012 5:48:12 AM] Bushlurker: in effect - cropped off
[7/18/2012 5:48:48 AM] Bushlurker: suppose it makes sense if you have that existing 2560x2560 image you've been working on
[7/18/2012 5:49:04 AM] Bushlurker: then you have 2570x2570's to add to it
[7/18/2012 5:49:10 AM] Bushlurker: just add them as they are
[7/18/2012 5:49:19 AM] Snake Man: but he says in the tutorial: "paste it have it fit into the top-left corner."
[7/18/2012 5:49:20 AM | Edited 5:51:54 AM] Bushlurker: tine up that top right corner
[7/18/2012 5:49:43 AM] Bushlurker: the bits that hang off the edge of the canvas are the blue edges you don't need anyway
[7/18/2012 5:49:52 AM] Bushlurker: you can just ignore them from then on
[7/18/2012 5:50:06 AM] Bushlurker: yup
[7/18/2012 5:50:29 AM] Bushlurker: 2 images open in photoshop - main one is 2560 - new layer just loaded is 2570
[7/18/2012 5:51:00 AM] Bushlurker: he says - select all of 2570 one - cut - go to main 2560 image - paste as new layer
[7/18/2012 5:51:18 AM | Edited 5:51:38 AM] Bushlurker: align new layer top right with existing main image top right
[7/18/2012 5:52:28 AM | Edited 5:53:01 AM] Bushlurker: new layer is 10px too big - since you aligned top right - it'll lose 10px off bottom & left
[7/24/2012 6:34:38 AM] Snake Man: hey man, still up? :)
[7/24/2012 6:35:57 AM] Bushlurker: sure am
[7/24/2012 6:36:48 AM] Snake Man: yeah I guess its benefits of working from home, 24hrs fun :)
hey I wanted to ask, did you ever encounter maximum number of objects in arma2?
[7/24/2012 6:37:18 AM] Bushlurker: nope
[7/24/2012 6:37:37 AM] Bushlurker: though I've heard of people boasting about a million+ objects
[7/24/2012 6:38:57 AM] Snake Man: actually I believe my one 51km test terrain has now like 2.3million objects... unless I'm totally forgetting the numbers. its stupid as there is no quick/easy way to count them. I just recall the world tools export totalled to something like that. but... I really need to confirm that number.
[7/24/2012 6:39:35 AM] Snake Man: the world tools EXP files are 145mb... so it just might be that number ;)
[7/24/2012 6:40:03 AM] Bushlurker: isn't there a V3 object counter script?
[7/24/2012 6:41:03 AM] Snake Man: hmm let me check. btw Miro told me yesterday that TOH has object limit somewhere over 4 million, he did not know how much it was for arma2.
[7/24/2012 6:42:00 AM] Snake Man: anyways not that I'm really planning on that many objects, just fun fact to find out.
[7/24/2012 6:43:02 AM] Bushlurker: once you start adding veg the numbers start climbing
[7/24/2012 6:43:32 AM] Bushlurker: I think theres about 250,000 objects on my little 5x5km ireland terrain.... all those hedgerows add up
[7/24/2012 6:44:34 AM] Snake Man: just checked the objectcounter script, I dont think it works or at least reports funnily, it says for me number of objects: 2.35266e - heh, e? :)
[7/24/2012 6:44:43 AM] Snake Man: usually that e means the digits go nuts ;)
[7/24/2012 6:47:09 AM] Bushlurker: dunno what that means
[7/24/2012 6:47:26 AM] Snake Man: anyways
last night I started to test 4096 grid terrains (if you read through the yesterdays map makers discussion). did actually 2048 - 50m and 4096 - 50m terrains, just to get started.
works fine of course with no objects, but right now when I add objects to it I get the "LandGrid reference exceeded the range" error which means texture layers are too small. but damn to go through all the satellite compiling and binarizing again, ARGH :)
[7/24/2012 6:47:33 AM] Bushlurker: could try "select all", then run script - see if it makes a difference
[7/24/2012 6:48:18 AM] Bushlurker: .... for counting I mean
[7/24/2012 6:51:41 AM] Snake Man: I tested it on smaller terrain, worked fine for 250,000 objects.  anyways I started to rebinarize the terrain again with 50m cell size and texture layers to 200m, hopefully that works.
[7/24/2012 6:59:01 AM] Snake Man: Miro also told me they are working on 1000km terrains now... that just seems crazy, have you come across this yet in UK offices?
[7/24/2012 6:59:06 AM] Snake Man: BISIm I mean.
[7/24/2012 6:59:28 AM] Bushlurker: back to flashpoint days with 50m cell size though
[7/24/2012 7:00:30 AM] Bushlurker: I made a 400km x 400km multimap as a demo - 32m cell size.... worked ok but it was pretty crap resolution, and even worse satmap res too... looked pretty crap
[7/24/2012 7:00:49 AM] Bushlurker: worked ok though, but its only real benefit was scale
[7/24/2012 7:01:40 AM] Bushlurker: even if I'd placed 1 tree for every 1000 real ones there were in the area I'd have been up there in the millions
[7/24/2012 7:02:18 AM | Edited 7:02:36 AM] Snake Man: I asked him about the multimap that is it always square type setup that its always 4 terrains together or can it work also on just 2 terrains, but didn't understand his anwer. any ideas?
[7/24/2012 7:02:46 AM] Bushlurker: think it needs to be a grid - 2x2, 3x3, etc
[7/24/2012 7:03:09 AM] Bushlurker: I did a 3x3 and it was more than enough of a hassle.... I'd hate to have to do a 4x4
[7/24/2012 7:04:56 AM] Snake Man: hmm okay. so has the engine improved for single terrains, I mean what is the largest single "normal" terrain which works there, or is the limitation just the huge satellite map size?
[7/24/2012 7:12:34 AM] Bushlurker: V4 and the vbs2 version of V3 are same limitations as Arma 2 - max 4096 terrains - same range of cell sizes, same basic limits on satmap size
[7/24/2012 7:15:14 AM | Edited 7:16:17 AM] Snake Man: has vbs engine fixed the large terrains character "shaking" effect where your character or viewport (dunno) shakes/vibrates. for example you look at your character in 3rd perspective and the shadows shake rapidly, you look at sun and the sunshine flare effect shakes, also grass clutter is not moving smoothly but kind of doing "robot" like movement, weird effect. have you seen this in arma2?
[7/24/2012 7:29:14 AM] Bushlurker: haven't really noticed that
[7/24/2012 7:29:26 AM] Bushlurker: might be an extreme terrain size effect
[7/24/2012 7:30:30 AM] Bushlurker: vbs2 big terrains stream, basically - they're smaller terrains that blend one into the other, so theres no "large single terrain" problems, or at least not to the same extent
[7/24/2012 7:31:41 AM] Snake Man: ok. I need to study TOH better to see how its working, Miro said there is better engine already (and I'm hoping those improvements will be in arma3) and the SEA map is 61km.
[7/24/2012 7:35:08 AM] Bushlurker: the 4096x4096 problem with objects is a Visitor 3 PE bug afaik.... 4096 works fine in V£ standard and V4 - that increases the possibilities for bigger terrains a little, so tkoh may be using 4096's.... even witha pretty good Sahrani-level 10m cell that gets you 40x40km - go to 12.5 and you're up to about 50x50km..... 12.5m still aint bad - all the current cwr2 terrains are 12.5m cell, though you wouldn't notice by looking
[7/24/2012 7:35:53 AM] Bushlurker: go to 15 and it'd still be pretty good - for a helicopter sim
[7/24/2012 7:36:12 AM] Bushlurker: maybe a little disappointing on foot, but thats not what tkoh was about anyway
[7/24/2012 7:36:48 AM | Edited 7:38:01 AM] Bushlurker: so 50 or 60km is perfectly possible without going really too crude at all....
[7/24/2012 7:37:46 AM] Bushlurker: once you get over about 15-20m cell though it starts to look a little blocky
[7/24/2012 7:38:13 AM] Bushlurker: tkoh basically treads that line
[7/24/2012 7:39:03 AM] Snake Man: yep. ok another issue; L3DT. I used to save 20480 pixel satellite from it, but it wont save it, says some freeimage error. do those large ones need to be saved in mosaic, if so what do you use to stitch them back together?
[7/24/2012 7:39:18 AM] Bushlurker: aaah
[7/24/2012 7:39:21 AM] Bushlurker: yeah
[7/24/2012 7:39:41 AM] Bushlurker: l3dt has problems exporting big .pngs
[7/24/2012 7:40:51 AM] Bushlurker: at the final sat image texture layer stage you can export .bmp and just convert, but when you go to export the Attributes layer to use as a mask theres no option to save as bmp
[7/24/2012 7:41:09 AM] Bushlurker: I usually save as tiled.mosaic output
[7/24/2012 7:41:39 AM] Bushlurker: you can choose to save tiled output - with each tile as a png, in any size of grid you want
[7/24/2012 7:42:30 AM] Bushlurker: for 20480x20480 I usually set mosaic tile size to 8192 - that gets you a 3x3 grid of tiles
[7/24/2012 7:43:08 AM] Bushlurker: then in photoshop - make a new blank 20480x20480 - switch grid and snap to grid on - set a big grid like 512px
[7/24/2012 7:43:35 AM] Bushlurker: then you can just drag the tiles in one at a time as new layers - snap them into place....
[7/24/2012 7:43:53 AM] Bushlurker: a 3x3 of 8192's is bigger than 20480
[7/24/2012 7:44:43 AM | Edited 7:47:54 AM] Bushlurker: the excess will just be blank magenta - it sticks out over the side of the image and disappears so then you can just merge all layers and you have your attributes layer again
[7/24/2012 7:46:28 AM] Bushlurker: or you can save as a mosaic of 4096x4096 tiles if you still get errors or if the magenta extra bit confuses you.... any size is fine - just drag and drop into a big snapping grid dummy image till they're all in position and you've reassembled the pieces
[7/24/2012 7:46:34 AM] Bushlurker: grid snap helps
[7/24/2012 7:46:52 AM] Bushlurker: you get the hang of it eventually and its pretty fast
[7/24/2012 7:46:56 AM] Bushlurker: pain in the ass though
[7/24/2012 7:51:19 AM | Edited 7:51:26 AM] Snake Man: ah yes, I got it now. thanks man, good tips.
[7/24/2012 8:04:10 AM] Snake Man: binarize is done, yes! :)
[7/24/2012 8:04:38 AM] Snake Man: L3DT is still processing 4096 - 10m satellite ;)
[7/24/2012 8:05:11 AM] Bushlurker: (y)
[7/24/2012 8:05:21 AM] Bushlurker: ok mate - c ya
[7/24/2012 8:05:29 AM] Snake Man: cu
[7/26/2012 6:45:30 AM] Snake Man: hello, how are you?
[7/26/2012 6:46:03 AM] Bushlurker: hi
[7/26/2012 6:46:58 AM] Bushlurker: not bad...
[7/26/2012 6:47:29 AM] Bushlurker: fooling around with shapefiles 2nite
[7/26/2012 6:49:00 AM] Snake Man: I know its wishful thinking and all, but still... you think some vbs features might be within arma2oa.exe engine too like the multimaps, the config part seems silly simple so who knows? :)
[7/26/2012 6:51:00 AM] Bushlurker: it IS a dead simple idea - yeah!
[7/26/2012 6:52:13 AM] Snake Man: http://manuals.bisimulations.com/vbs2/2-00/devref/#Terrain_Manual/TM_Multimaps.htm
reading that, it seems simple. you have done it yourself, is it really that simple, one array in config + the "tile-terrains" in subdirs?
[7/26/2012 6:52:35 AM] Bushlurker: yup
[7/26/2012 6:53:35 AM] Bushlurker: each subterrain has its own folder - inside its like a standard island - sat & mask, layers folder, config, you save out a .wrp for it etc - just a normal island
[7/26/2012 6:56:17 AM] Snake Man: btw did you follow my comments about the many objects testing in past two days? :)
[7/26/2012 6:56:23 AM] Snake Man: on arma2 map makers channel.
[7/26/2012 7:10:45 AM] Bushlurker: hi again
[7/26/2012 7:10:58 AM] Bushlurker: yeah - sounded impressive
[7/26/2012 7:11:18 AM] Bushlurker: just chatting to mikero in another window about an object injecting tool
[7/26/2012 7:11:44 AM] Bushlurker: WT > pew directly
[7/26/2012 7:15:37 AM] Snake Man: kind of feel depressed now that day before yesterday I spend most of it just waiting for the v3 import script do its thing and eventually many times the whole "project" was for nothing as v3 crashed :)
[7/26/2012 7:16:31 AM] Bushlurker: rebooting frequently before and after helps a lot
[7/26/2012 7:17:50 AM] Bushlurker: [Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:49 AM] Snake Man: 

<<<  you think some vbs features might be within arma2oa.exe engine too like the multimapsdefo not... its a bolt-on feature added to the vbs2 (arma 1) engine, so it was probably never in A2 in the first place.....
[7/26/2012 7:18:26 AM] Bushlurker: it was labelled "beta" in vbs2 for ages - they werer trying to get the "different sub terrains can be different resolutions" bit working
[7/26/2012 7:18:36 AM] Bushlurker: according to Miro it now is
[7/26/2012 7:18:59 AM] Bushlurker: so it might not be beta anymore
[7/26/2012 7:19:00 AM] Snake Man: ah okay.
[7/26/2012 7:25:53 AM] Snake Man: now that I've been back to arma2 for few weeks and been terrain editing too, I got tons of notes in small text file (well not so small anymore heh), its going to take a while to dump into our wiki when I get around to it.
I admit I should put any newly learned info/technique/etc there right away, but it feels that it take s too long so its easier to just paste it on "wiki todo" text file heh.
[7/26/2012 7:27:05 AM] Bushlurker: its always good to keep notes!
[7/29/2012 12:31:55 AM] Snake Man: hey there. thanks for the nice post in my terrain6 topic at bis forums.
[7/29/2012 12:43:45 AM] Bushlurker: hi!
[7/29/2012 12:44:02 AM] Bushlurker: no problema.... good experiment!
[7/29/2012 12:44:43 AM] Snake Man: at your work, do you get to use VBEdit?
[7/29/2012 12:52:39 AM] Bushlurker: it's not out yet, though theres a trial demo been doing the rounds.....
[7/29/2012 12:53:54 AM] Snake Man: was just thinking that while the backbone of terrain editing should be powerful yet lightweight 2D editor, that kind of mapfact 3de would be really cool to place some objects with precision. nothing beats in-game.
[7/29/2012 12:54:41 AM] Snake Man: alredy asked from Homer Johnston if hes road painter can be easily modified to place single objects :)
[7/29/2012 12:55:11 AM] Snake Man: unfortunately I know nothing of the dialog GUI stuff which is reguired for anykind of such tool/addon.
[7/29/2012 12:59:36 AM] Bushlurker: vbedit is unbelievably overpriced, and the demo is so limited it's hard to tell how good it is...
[7/29/2012 12:59:53 AM] Bushlurker: sadly the mapfact 3de only works for arma 1
[7/29/2012 1:00:07 AM] Snake Man: how much are they asking for it?
[7/29/2012 1:01:09 AM] Bushlurker: however - you CAN use the arma 2 3d editor to place stuff - export the file then run it thru world tools - it converts to a Visitor import file and away you go - arrangement placed in Vis
[7/29/2012 1:02:19 AM] Bushlurker: [Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:00 AM] Snake Man: 

<<< how much are they asking for it?its definitely a corporate client only thing, don't know if price has been finalised yet but reputedly, lets just say it would cost not far off a years wages for me
[7/29/2012 1:03:25 AM] Snake Man: yeah 3D editor. I gotta try that one out. I can easily make util to convert the mission.sqm (or was it sqf) into v3 import file.
[7/29/2012 1:03:51 AM] Bushlurker: theres one in WT already
[7/29/2012 1:04:25 AM] Bushlurker: only prob with 3d editor is the way it handles positions coords
[7/29/2012 1:04:52 AM] Bushlurker: Mondkalb looked at it recently - think he discussed it on the mapmakers thread a while back
[7/29/2012 1:06:38 AM] Bushlurker: it stores something like six figure coords or something, but that includes decimal places, so objects at low coords, like 50.0546 get stored accurately, but if youre at a different part of the map where the coordds are high, then it gets less accurate.... 10235.6
[7/29/2012 1:06:46 AM] Bushlurker: something like that anyway
[7/29/2012 1:06:59 AM] Bushlurker: it was coding talk so I didnt really listen
[7/29/2012 1:07:02 AM] Bushlurker: :D
[7/29/2012 1:07:29 AM] Bushlurker: it introduces inaccuracies anyway - so little gaps appear when you placed wall sections properly
[7/29/2012 1:08:30 AM] Snake Man: oh okay.
[7/29/2012 1:09:06 AM] Snake Man: well anyways road painter is really close of useful editor if we just swap in the road drawing thing into normal single object placement feature.
[7/29/2012 1:09:35 AM] Bushlurker: I've suggested it already
[7/29/2012 1:09:41 AM] Bushlurker: several times ;)
[7/29/2012 1:09:50 AM] Bushlurker: so Homer's aware of the potential
[7/29/2012 1:12:47 AM] Snake Man: I'd wish my C++ skills would improve so I can make GUI 2D editor simply to insert/delete and move objects. this way at least we could bypass the v3 not working on 4096 heightmaps on right side.
[7/29/2012 1:13:35 AM] Snake Man: it would be like a start, then to add more advanced stuff which would actually make such tool useful. of course I already have bunch of useful cmd line tools which functions could be added.
[7/29/2012 1:14:49 AM] Bushlurker: theres a way around that 4096 thing I think
[7/29/2012 1:15:04 AM] Bushlurker: first you'd need to do another experiment
[7/29/2012 1:15:29 AM] Bushlurker: try placing then moving/rotating, etc objects in 2D editor on a 4096 map
[7/29/2012 1:15:48 AM | Edited 1:16:16 AM] Bushlurker: see if it IS defo for sure that bottom right quarter of the map only where once you've placed something you can't access it properly
[7/29/2012 1:17:41 AM] Bushlurker: if it is, then - technically - you could crop your heightmap down to just that right hand bottom 2048x2048 quarter
[7/29/2012 1:17:48 AM] Bushlurker: do the same with mask & sat
[7/29/2012 1:18:03 AM] Bushlurker: then make a new project with just that quarter
[7/29/2012 1:18:15 AM] Bushlurker: place and tweak all objects till its done
[7/29/2012 1:18:20 AM] Bushlurker: then export them all
[7/29/2012 1:18:32 AM] Bushlurker: hack the files to introduce a coord offset
[7/29/2012 1:18:42 AM] Bushlurker: then import them all to your main project
[7/29/2012 1:19:18 AM] Bushlurker: you wouldnt be able to tweak those objects once they were placed but it wouldnt matter since all the careful placement would be done by then
[7/29/2012 1:20:07 AM] Bushlurker: in other words - do the dodgy quarter externally then import and paste the whole thing in one
[7/29/2012 1:20:25 AM] Snake Man: its the whole right side. lower corner, upper corner.
[7/29/2012 1:21:23 AM] Bushlurker: could still do em both same way
[7/29/2012 1:21:26 AM] Bushlurker: :D
[7/29/2012 1:21:40 AM] Bushlurker: depends just how bad you wanna use 4096x4096
[7/29/2012 1:28:40 AM] Snake Man: today I was working on PMC 51km Desert again, want to release kind of bugfix version which has ambient mobules / locations fixed so warfare and MSO works. also I fixed some minor things, tried to add roads to satmap, I did but they look awful low res etc. was thinking of putting some erosion to the heightmap and resizing satellite from 12800 to 20480 now that my computer is better suited to edit those monsters, but those are for later releases.
[7/29/2012 1:29:38 AM] Bushlurker: going to 20480 will help a lot - specially if you're stretching it over 51km!!
[7/29/2012 1:30:21 AM] Bushlurker: mondkalb went to 25K satmap with cwr2 Nogova
[7/29/2012 1:30:56 AM] Snake Man: heh yeah, I noticed that the method you descibed, select roads, expand 2 pixels... made it look horrible as it was really wide and low res. now I dont expand at all and its still quite wide. I cant wrap my head around it now but I assume its more detailed at least with 20480 but is it more narrower dunno. anyways that is for the later date.
[7/29/2012 1:30:59 AM] Bushlurker: thats not impossible though loading, saving and importing involves some long waits...... it'll work though
[7/29/2012 1:31:51 AM] Bushlurker: ... well - yeah - 2 pixels over 51km is a LOT.... on my little terrains its a meter
[7/29/2012 1:32:55 AM] Snake Man: heh yeah that explains it. anyways now I have grey satmap paint under the roads, works fairly well while it still is ugly... but its better than not having anything, having roads just magically appear on front of you.
[7/29/2012 1:33:26 AM] Bushlurker: yup - gotta draw em too
[7/29/2012 1:33:33 AM] Snake Man: also what do you think about going to 4096 heightmap 12.5m cell as I run now 2048 25m (was 50m before but I resized it)?
[7/29/2012 1:34:02 AM] Snake Man: (I dont need to edit right side in v3 so that is not an issue hehe).
[7/29/2012 1:34:48 AM] Bushlurker: worth a try... there WILL be a performance impact, but its a desert terrain, it may not be very noticable at all
[7/29/2012 1:35:22 AM] Snake Man: oh, do you mean by its 51km size, or just 12.5m cell regardless of the overall size?
[7/29/2012 1:35:37 AM] Bushlurker: you'd get a lot better definition for hills
[7/29/2012 1:35:38 AM] Snake Man: I mean is 2km terrain with 12.5m taking performance hit?
[7/29/2012 1:36:42 AM] Bushlurker: no..... going from 2048 to 4096 quadruples the ground cells - 4x the groundcells in view at any time
[7/29/2012 1:37:05 AM | Edited 1:37:27 AM] Bushlurker: more for the engine to do - all other things remaining the same
[7/29/2012 1:37:45 AM] Bushlurker: may not be a major issue though
[7/29/2012 1:38:24 AM] Snake Man: ok. well I'll definitely give it a try, I'll do the next release in this 2048 - 25m size though.
[7/29/2012 1:39:13 AM] Bushlurker: 12.5m cells is maybe a little crude for a smaller map - though all the CWR2 terrains are actually 1024's with 12.5m cells - but for a 51km it's pretty good
[7/29/2012 1:40:15 AM] Snake Man: yep. I really want to release these "hotfix" releases and then concentrate on C++ studies if I could get some 2D terrain editor basic object placement thing done ;)
[7/29/2012 1:40:24 AM] Snake Man: one sec, background, right back ...
[7/29/2012 1:43:06 AM] Bushlurker: I know very little about coding
[7/29/2012 1:43:12 AM] Bushlurker: but I woulda thought
[7/29/2012 1:44:17 AM] Bushlurker: the 3d editor - once you have a editor upgrade pbo running - gives you access to all the objects, plus allows you to place them...
[7/29/2012 1:44:43 AM] Bushlurker: its only drawback is the code that doesnt store the coords correctly
[7/29/2012 1:45:29 AM] Bushlurker: I'd find that pbo - unpack it - fix the code - repack into a "personal copy" and run that as a mod when I want to 3d edit
[7/29/2012 1:45:52 AM] Bushlurker: exports go via worldtools to visitor object import script
[7/29/2012 1:45:59 AM] Bushlurker: and you're rocking
[7/29/2012 1:46:28 AM] Bushlurker: only thing missing is placing lots of objects one after the other in a line neatly - like long fences maybe
[7/29/2012 1:47:31 AM] Bushlurker: you can place stuff either regularly or randomly along any line you want of you use a length of road and the "Avenue" script
[7/29/2012 1:47:53 AM] Bushlurker: lay a road anywhere any shape - run the script to place stuff along it
[7/29/2012 1:47:57 AM] Bushlurker: delete the road
[7/29/2012 1:50:17 AM] Bushlurker: hardly vbedit, but you can cobble together most stuff using one tool or another
[7/29/2012 1:51:05 AM] Bushlurker: all the hedgerows in my Ireland terrain I did with Worldtools and a seperate mask with 1 pixel lines for the hedges....
[7/29/2012 1:51:24 AM] Snake Man: back.
[7/29/2012 1:51:47 AM] Snake Man: hmm 3D editor code is in some pbo, isn't that in the engine?
[7/29/2012 1:53:27 AM] Bushlurker: engine is tiny - almost everything save the core raytracer is external somewhere
[7/29/2012 1:54:03 AM] Bushlurker: dunno where tho
[7/29/2012 1:54:36 AM] Bushlurker: but if you've a fully Arma2P loaded P:\ drive then it's somewhere in P:\CA
[7/29/2012 1:55:15 AM] Snake Man: no I don't use arma2p but yeah I've unpacked everything, even the sounds :)
[7/29/2012 1:55:48 AM] Bushlurker: and the editor?
[7/29/2012 1:56:23 AM] Snake Man: just looking at it now, there seems to be ca_editor class.
[7/29/2012 1:57:00 AM] Bushlurker: probably a good place to start looking anyway
[7/29/2012 1:57:22 AM] Bushlurker: for anything config related a really good person to ask is Kju
[7/29/2012 1:57:43 AM] Bushlurker: though he prefers to call himself "PVP Scene" now
[7/29/2012 1:57:52 AM] Bushlurker: you'll find him on the forums
[7/29/2012 1:58:11 AM] Bushlurker: he's the guy who did CAA1 - knows configs inside out
[7/29/2012 1:58:19 AM] Bushlurker: he'd tell you where to look
[7/29/2012 1:59:43 AM] Bushlurker: I'd also check the World tools help files - see what it has to say about its 3d editor importer/exporter section... there might be some discussion of useage there
[7/29/2012 2:00:12 AM] Bushlurker: plus of course the last couple of release threads for the last couple of world tools versions
[7/29/2012 2:00:45 AM] Bushlurker: not sure which of the last couple of releases that feature was added but obviously it was introduced and probably discussed at the time
[7/29/2012 2:01:14 AM] Bushlurker: finding those conversations is likely to have some info on using the 3d editor with it, etc
[7/29/2012 2:05:35 AM] Snake Man: found it on "editor.pbo" hehe. but could not find anything obvious related to the coordinates.
[7/29/2012 2:12:00 AM] Bushlurker: ask pvp scene - or maybe mondkalb
[7/29/2012 2:12:45 AM] Bushlurker: or look back over the last 2 or 3 weeks of the terrainmakers convo
[7/29/2012 2:12:49 AM] Bushlurker: or all three
[7/29/2012 2:12:51 AM] Bushlurker: :)
[7/29/2012 2:20:27 AM] Snake Man: moving and rotating objects is nice, but selecting them is pure horror. as-is that can't be used to place objects.
[7/29/2012 2:27:16 AM] Bushlurker: I've never tried the 3d editor thing - one or two guys swear by it
[7/29/2012 2:30:29 AM] Snake Man: anyways I'm off to sleep, dead tired. tomorrow I'll release new versions of my terrains so they are "hotfixed" for ambient modules - warfare/mso etc goodies... then maybe I can start to really study the C++ GUI stuff :)
[7/29/2012 2:30:34 AM] Snake Man: cu tomorrow, nites.
[7/29/2012 2:34:35 AM] Bushlurker: ok mate
[7/29/2012 2:34:45 AM] Bushlurker: catch ya later
[7/29/2012 6:14:44 PM] Snake Man: hello. now that I got 51km desert out, I need to fix PMC Rattler the same way. ambient civilian module is fixed so its good, but now I'm looking at the satellite texture... and it looks bad. here it is on photoshop, you obviously see whats going on, that repeating pattern looks horrific in-game:
[7/29/2012 6:14:45 PM] Snake Man: http://tactical.nekromantix.com/Rattler_photoshop.jpg
[7/29/2012 6:14:49 PM] Snake Man: sec...
[7/29/2012 6:17:35 PM] Bushlurker: you could try feeding the heightmap into l3dt - run a simple climate on it, see what it comes up with...
[7/29/2012 6:19:54 PM] Snake Man: I'm thinking of beefing it up from 12800 to 20480 anyways to give more details. I created that satellite from the OFP texturing as is 1:1 (long story, if you really are interested I can explain it later), but yes its kind of OFP textures and not satellite texture heh. any suggestions how to improve that (yes L3DT) without moving too far away from the original, for example what kind of work did you do the CWR terrains, are they matching the old originals nicely or did you go completely wild on them making realistic satellite texture?
[7/29/2012 6:23:02 PM] Bushlurker: a bit of both really..... I fed the heightmaps to l3dt and let it decide what should go where - then I checked the result against the ofp original and tweaked a little if necessary.... like for the desert area in north Malden - BIS just decided that was desert, rather than it being implicit in the heightmap
[7/29/2012 6:25:36 PM] Snake Man: http://tactical.nekromantix.com/rattler_l3dt_texture.png
that's what I get from L3DT, looks horrible in my eyes, not look like desert at all. I used the desert template. any suggestions?
[7/29/2012 6:37:06 PM] Bushlurker: heheh
[7/29/2012 6:37:21 PM] Bushlurker: l3dt requires a bit of climate tweaking for best results
[7/29/2012 6:37:51 PM] Bushlurker: though you'd be surprised - that would probably look OK in-game
[7/29/2012 6:40:25 PM] Bushlurker: you really need to edit the climate a little... disable or enable different surfaces - set them to show in the Attributes layer as nice bright colours - see where they're landing.... then look at the associated textures for those surfaces - tweak them if you want... then generate the AM layer and export it as a mask, then go thru the other steps and finally generate and export the matching texture layer...
then you use one as a mask and the other as a sat - having edited your layers.cfg to use the mask colours
[7/29/2012 6:42:05 PM] Snake Man: I'll test how that looks in-game. just simple 4096 test so I don't have to wait all night for L3DT to generate that texture.
[7/29/2012 6:42:47 PM] Bushlurker: yeah - I run the Attributes layer at something like 4096 to start with
[7/29/2012 6:42:57 PM] Bushlurker: see where the different surfaces are landing
[7/29/2012 6:43:06 PM] Bushlurker: tweak the climate - test again
[7/29/2012 6:43:54 PM] Bushlurker: I do that over and over till the Attributes look like they're spread out nicely... then I crank the res up to final hi-res and generate
[7/29/2012 6:44:11 PM] Bushlurker: then you go thru all the other steps in sequence
[7/29/2012 6:45:27 PM] Snake Man: btw when you re-import satellite texture, do you manually delete data\Layers dir just in case or do you trust v3 will overwrite properly etc that no leftover png/rvmat's are left behind?
[7/29/2012 6:48:22 PM] Bushlurker: Iusually delete the previous layers folder entirely if I've made big changes
[7/29/2012 6:49:15 PM] Snake Man: yep me too, at least if you change the satellite size (quite obvious) or the other stuff like texture layer base thing.
[7/29/2012 6:51:15 PM] Bushlurker: yes - definitely on that sort of occasion
[7/29/2012 6:51:52 PM] Snake Man: binarize is chewing the first test version.
[7/29/2012 6:52:35 PM] Snake Man: hopefully the low res 4096 doesn't in itself make it look bad. I guess the basic outline of the texture comes up. we'll see.
[7/29/2012 6:53:10 PM] Snake Man: I just remember running L3DT for 20480 while doing that terrain 6 40km and it took like whole night ;)
[7/29/2012 6:54:01 PM] Bushlurker: heheh.... yeah.... it can take a while on the larger sizes......
[7/29/2012 6:54:27 PM] Bushlurker: I do that stuff on a second machine so I can get on with other stuff while it's churning away for hours
[7/29/2012 6:55:01 PM | Edited 6:55:10 PM] Snake Man: or maybe leave it running overnight when you have finalized the small test texture first.
[7/29/2012 6:55:49 PM] Bushlurker: yeah.... that'd work too
[7/29/2012 6:59:23 PM] Snake Man: binarize is chewing and I'm thinking to myself here... about what you said of that editing objects on small area at time, then export objects, adjust theird coords and import into "right side of the map in v3".
[7/29/2012 7:00:31 PM] Snake Man: WrpTool is still the greatest for object placement (dunno how v4 is for you but speaking of community stuff), so maybe we could use its 50m cell setup somehow on small scale, small part of the whole terrain (maybe 10m cell) and export/import objects from there.
[7/29/2012 7:01:10 PM] Snake Man: its kind of tricky as some of the arma2 object paths + filenames are quite long, I'm not sure but I think 4WVR and therefore WrpTool limit is 76 characters, dunno if ca\ has longer file names than that.
[7/29/2012 7:01:33 PM] Snake Man: then its of course to convert the arma2 ODOLs into WrpTool ODOLs, hehe, tricky but can be done.
[7/29/2012 7:02:24 PM] Bushlurker: [Sunday, July 29, 2012 7:00 PM] Snake Man: 

<<< dunno how v4 is for you but speaking of community stuffV4's hopeless for object placement.... it's basically just a layers based gis system.... you need to use it for structure and final export, but I use standard Visitor 3 all the time for almost everything
[7/29/2012 7:06:26 PM | Edited 7:07:05 PM] Bushlurker: I even hacked my VBS2 version of Visitor 3 to use Arma2OA's "buldozer.exe" instead of the vbs2 one, cause it has those handy fine detail heights tweaking keys - vbs2 buldozer the finest grade height tweaking is a really crude 1m increment
[7/29/2012 7:09:27 PM] Snake Man: ok screenshots from the L3DT 4096 "desert climate" template:
http://tactical.nekromantix.com/BushLurkersHideOut/
[7/29/2012 7:11:23 PM] Bushlurker: that looks pretty good
[7/29/2012 7:12:32 PM] Bushlurker: the "banding" might be due to a strata overlay
[7/29/2012 7:12:35 PM] Snake Man: there is those obvious layers or kind of like "rings" visible. I've seen them on many user made terrains, heh I guess many use L3DT to create texture.
[7/29/2012 7:13:13 PM] Bushlurker: theres a "use strata overlay on/off" tickbox at the final texture layer generating parameters stage
[7/29/2012 7:13:26 PM] Bushlurker: I've messed with this on afghan style terrains
[7/29/2012 7:13:58 PM] Bushlurker: when I get to the final full-res texture generating stage I generate the full sized texture with it switched "on"
[7/29/2012 7:14:07 PM] Bushlurker: save that out as a final fullsized bmp
[7/29/2012 7:14:20 PM] Bushlurker: then I generate again, with strata OFF
[7/29/2012 7:14:29 PM] Bushlurker: save that out as a full sized bmp too
[7/29/2012 7:14:42 PM] Bushlurker: then I overlay and blend the two in photoshop
[7/29/2012 7:14:55 PM] Snake Man: I have allow strate overlays ON. btw what about the Use Light Map, I read somewhere (from you?) that it needs to be off?
[7/29/2012 7:15:39 PM] Bushlurker: you need to be careful that it doesn't introduce "false shadows" that contradict the in-game lighting
[7/29/2012 7:15:58 PM] Bushlurker: you can use it turned down quite low - set to "noon", etc
[7/29/2012 7:17:14 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/CWR2/light01.PNG
[7/29/2012 7:18:13 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/CWR2/light02.PNG
[7/29/2012 7:18:33 PM] Bushlurker: res would be whatever res you're using and you can turn water effects off for a desert ;)
[7/29/2012 7:19:08 PM] Bushlurker: notice the "use bump mapping" - if you're using lighting, do the bump mapping at this stage
[7/29/2012 7:19:37 PM] Bushlurker: you'll only need a nominal basic 4096 res bumpmap layer in that case
[7/29/2012 7:20:10 PM] Bushlurker: if you don't use lighting, do a proper full res bumpmap at the bumpmap stage
[7/29/2012 7:20:32 PM] Snake Man: hmm okay.
[7/29/2012 7:22:20 PM] Bushlurker: if you want to get really clever - take a look at the actual Desert climate more closely
[7/29/2012 7:22:26 PM] Bushlurker: its a collection of surfaces
[7/29/2012 7:22:37 PM] Bushlurker: each surface has an associated material
[7/29/2012 7:23:07 PM] Bushlurker: each material is basically a texture and matching bumpmap - sometimes several of them layered up
[7/29/2012 7:23:26 PM] Bushlurker: theres a materials editor - you can open one of the desert materials and take a look
[7/29/2012 7:23:41 PM] Bushlurker: it'll be that sandy yellow sort of texture
[7/29/2012 7:24:03 PM] Bushlurker: you can copy that material - rename it and save it under another name
[7/29/2012 7:24:23 PM] Bushlurker: then - dump that crap yellow and add in something better
[7/29/2012 7:24:39 PM] Bushlurker: something that looks more like a real desert seen from the air
[7/29/2012 7:25:17 PM] Bushlurker: I mostly make my own
[7/29/2012 7:25:32 PM] Bushlurker: I never use the inbuilt l3dt materials
[7/29/2012 7:25:53 PM] Bushlurker: the textures are basically just little seamless tileable squares
[7/29/2012 7:26:32 PM | Edited 7:26:42 PM] Bushlurker: so I crop likely looking chunks out of desert regions in Google earth..... can't get much more authentic than actual real
[7/29/2012 7:26:46 PM] Bushlurker: ;)
[7/29/2012 7:26:50 PM] Bushlurker: like these
[7/29/2012 7:26:57 PM] *** Bushlurker sent scrub01.PNG ***
[7/29/2012 7:27:03 PM] *** Bushlurker sent scrub05.PNG ***
[7/29/2012 7:27:36 PM] *** Bushlurker sent Desert_terrain_14.jpg ***
[7/29/2012 7:27:47 PM] *** Bushlurker sent Desert_terrain_07.jpg ***
[7/29/2012 7:27:55 PM] *** Bushlurker sent Desert_terrain_25.jpg ***
[7/29/2012 7:28:01 PM] *** Bushlurker sent Desert_terrain_22.jpg ***
[7/29/2012 7:28:08 PM] Bushlurker: you get the idea
[7/29/2012 7:28:37 PM] Bushlurker: I screencap google earth chunks - load them into gimp and crop to a square shape
[7/29/2012 7:29:03 PM] Bushlurker: I use gimp for that cause then you can just go to filters - make seamless and it's instantly tileable
[7/29/2012 7:29:32 PM] Bushlurker: then since I'm in gimp anyway I use the basic Gimp normals plugin to bang off a quick matching bumpmap texture
[7/29/2012 7:31:10 PM] Snake Man: ok gimme a sec, lot of info :)
[7/29/2012 7:31:33 PM] Bushlurker: l3dt takes a little practise
[7/29/2012 7:31:59 PM] Snake Man: in fact I'm blending together no strata and strata textures at the same time, going to see how it effects the banding. what sort of opacity do you use when blending them together?
[7/29/2012 7:32:46 PM] Bushlurker: I use "overlay" mode and usually just woggle the transparancy slider till it looks good :D
[7/29/2012 7:33:33 PM] Bushlurker: using "no strata" as the base texture - normal - 100%, then the strata one above - overlay - woggle the slider for %
[7/29/2012 7:36:44 PM] Snake Man: okay done, now once again v3 sat import, then convertwrp, then pal2pace then binarize :)
[7/29/2012 7:38:19 PM] Snake Man: ok binarize running, now lets see your sent images.
[7/29/2012 7:39:09 PM] Bushlurker: seems like an awful fuss..... can't you just import sat & mask, then start buldozer - the conversion to paa will happen automatically and when it's done - just save .wrp - then save project - quit and binarize
[7/29/2012 7:40:54 PM] Snake Man: no the buldozer paa converting takes forever and then it reads MLODs (I have custom models) also forever. I want speed. I have batch files for all those so its just matter of clicking them.
[7/29/2012 7:41:20 PM] Snake Man: I hardly ever use buldozer in v3, the combination sucks too bad :)
[7/29/2012 7:41:40 PM] Snake Man: visitor is great for one thing, chopping up the satellite and making rvmats :D
[7/29/2012 7:42:44 PM] Snake Man: "I have a dream... I have a dream when one day we stood together using completely stand alone ArmA 3 Terrain Editor which does everything and we never have give another thought to visitor 3!" :D
[7/29/2012 7:49:25 PM] Bushlurker: :D
[7/29/2012 7:50:40 PM] Snake Man: ok new satellite went in, blended no strata and strata, I guess the blend looked good in photoshop but in-game it now looks real "bland" sandy mush color, let me throw in screenies in few moments...
[7/29/2012 7:52:19 PM] Bushlurker: well the colour is down to the texture in the material... you can change that.... the blending takes some experimenting until you get something that looks good
[7/29/2012 7:54:51 PM] Bushlurker: at low res it'll look spread out and bland anyway
[7/29/2012 7:56:34 PM] Snake Man: uploaded new screenshots to the dir.
[7/29/2012 8:01:42 PM] Bushlurker: looks ok
[7/29/2012 8:01:57 PM] Bushlurker: theres subtle detail and character happening there
[7/29/2012 8:02:03 PM] Bushlurker: thats what you want
[7/29/2012 8:02:36 PM] Bushlurker: not sure about the exact colouring but that can be tweaked - with adjustment layers in ps if necessary
[7/29/2012 8:03:09 PM] Bushlurker: I did this sort of deserty one recently
[7/29/2012 8:03:13 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/BushIslands/Waadi_Armaan/ArmA2OA%202012-05-30%2005-17-43-53.png
[7/29/2012 8:03:40 PM] Bushlurker: used an adapted version of the l3dt desert climate
[7/29/2012 8:03:45 PM] Bushlurker: did the strata thing
[7/29/2012 8:03:59 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/BushIslands/Waadi_Armaan/basic.PNG
[7/29/2012 8:04:07 PM] Bushlurker: basic no stratas
[7/29/2012 8:04:16 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/BushIslands/Waadi_Armaan/strata.PNG
[7/29/2012 8:04:23 PM] Bushlurker: same thing with strata
[7/29/2012 8:04:33 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/BushIslands/Waadi_Armaan/overlay%26blend.PNG
[7/29/2012 8:04:39 PM] Bushlurker: overlaid and blended
[7/29/2012 8:05:06 PM] Bushlurker: then a few more layers plus some adjustments layers
[7/29/2012 8:05:08 PM] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30396435/BushIslands/Waadi_Armaan/final%20layered.PNG
[7/29/2012 8:06:14 PM] Snake Man: yeah that final looks good, more darker.
[7/29/2012 8:06:49 PM] Bushlurker: brightness/contrast adjustment layer probably
[7/29/2012 8:09:44 PM] Bushlurker: the initial l3dt output looks pretty bland really - its all the overlaying and masking and layering that adds depth and more character, till it starts to look like a real sat image
[7/29/2012 8:09:59 PM] Bushlurker: l3dt output is just your base, not a final product
[7/29/2012 8:10:29 PM] Bushlurker: but its a good and relatively quick and clean way to get a good basic mask and sat layer to start with
[7/29/2012 8:28:29 PM] Snake Man: chopping satellite texture... heh lot of waiting in terrain editing :)
[7/29/2012 8:30:41 PM] Snake Man: not sure what I'm going to do with the satellite... I guess a start is to make it 20480, then see if I can find some suitable "seed" textures from google earth which are somewhat good looking and would fit to the OFP originals somewhat. I don't feel the design of the terrain (oldschool OFP port) can use the L3DT generated texture, its completely new type then. so we'll see.
[7/29/2012 8:31:35 PM] Snake Man: I can use L3DT mask though, then blend in the original "OFP mask" what I did where airfield and ports are done etc.
[7/29/2012 8:39:26 PM] Bushlurker: or export emf's from V3 of roads, buildings, veg, etc - overlay em on the mask
[7/29/2012 8:41:11 PM] Snake Man: ah yeah of course that too.
[7/29/2012 8:41:41 PM] Snake Man: its also interesting to see if 20480 res helps to make roads look better and not some pixel junk.
[7/29/2012 8:51:35 PM] Bushlurker: should do, though with 20,000-odd pixels stretched across 50,000-odd meters it won't be brilliant
[7/29/2012 8:51:41 PM] Bushlurker: will be better though
[7/29/2012 8:52:04 PM] Snake Man: its now 2m/pixel as rattler is 25km terrain.
[7/29/2012 8:52:44 PM] Snake Man: umm or something, forgot already hehe
[7/29/2012 8:53:06 PM] Bushlurker: 20480 stretched across 25,000-odd - not far off 1m/px
[7/29/2012 8:54:45 PM] Snake Man: yeah sorry I'm still importing that old 12800 as test, that was 2m/pixel.
[7/29/2012 10:49:40 PM] Snake Man: evenings last satellite chopping under way, this time first 20480 resolution test. only few features painted there yet, but its a start :)
[7/29/2012 10:50:26 PM] Bushlurker: gives you an idea how it's gonna look so its always good to test
[8/2/2012 11:04:58 PM] Snake Man: hey there, how are you?
[8/2/2012 11:07:09 PM] Bushlurker: hi Snake..... was off coffeefetchin' there.....
[8/2/2012 11:07:45 PM] Bushlurker: I'm good..... been rebuilding my system and reinstalling everything for the last two days.... still not finished...
[8/2/2012 11:08:06 PM] Snake Man: two days, wow, that's a large system :)
win 7 perhaps or?
[8/2/2012 11:08:46 PM] Bushlurker: its two systems basically networked together and controlled from the one kb and mouse
[8/2/2012 11:09:04 PM] Snake Man: oh, interesting.
[8/2/2012 11:09:35 PM] Snake Man: hey I wanted to talk about roads or rather cfgSurfaces.
[8/2/2012 11:10:17 PM] Snake Man: I played yesterday on PMC Rattler, heh can you imagine that, actually playing instead of editing, weird :)
and noticed that its kind of tricky to drive a car like hummer/uaz there in the desert.
[8/2/2012 11:10:51 PM] Bushlurker: an i7 950 with a gtx570 and 3 big monitors in a line plus a sandybridge with a gtx 560 and two monitors as a render and dev machine
[8/2/2012 11:11:40 PM] Snake Man: the desert sand is cfgSurface configured like this:
rough = 0.2;
dust = 0.5;
I haven't done much investigating for it, maybe there is lot of room to tweak etc. but the desert surface is very slow and bumby for car type vehicles. asfalt roads of course are nice and fast, but dirt roads are again really slow, I can't remmeber but I think uaz goes to like 50km/h or something.
[8/2/2012 11:11:54 PM] Snake Man: how do you feel about roads versus terrain surface in gameplay balance usually?
[8/2/2012 11:11:54 PM] Bushlurker: theres a "roughness" parameter which you can specify on a per-surface basis.... also "dust" and "footstep sound" and "ambient sound" params
[8/2/2012 11:12:27 PM] Bushlurker: I think "roughness" affects driving speed
[8/2/2012 11:12:56 PM] Bushlurker: plus I think vehicles have "offroad" params as well
[8/2/2012 11:13:04 PM] Bushlurker: so it depends on the vehicle too
[8/2/2012 11:13:26 PM] Snake Man: yeah some of the civilian cars like skoda or something are like walking speed on rough terrain.
[8/2/2012 11:13:33 PM] Bushlurker: yeah
[8/2/2012 11:14:11 PM] Snake Man: then the landrover, it in takistan is like the most devastating weapon as you get so high mobility, almost unreal heh. at least that's how I feel about it when I use it in my guerrilla/insurgent mission.
[8/2/2012 11:15:57 PM] Snake Man: do you think the terrain roughness should effect driving speed, like if you have flat desert sand you should be able to drive quite fast and when you have very rugged type bumps etc, then naturally slow (not talking about any "jumps" where car flies but still rough).
[8/2/2012 11:16:31 PM] Snake Man: what I mean is, it kind of feels lame to have flat desert sand and then drive like 20km/h on it as it feels like "why I cant go faster, its flat nice even surface!" :)
[8/2/2012 11:17:00 PM] Bushlurker: I guess it's a combination of both params
[8/2/2012 11:17:47 PM] Bushlurker: if you have a surface that's specifically used as flat level desert then giving it a low roughness means you'll get pretty much whatever the vehicles "max offroad" speed is
[8/2/2012 11:20:38 PM] Snake Man: then there is the fact that not all desert sands are such that you can drive vehicles fast. I remember in Desert Storm allied forces had great concern about the desert surface in Iraq, will it carry tanks or do they get bogged down etc.
[8/2/2012 11:36:47 PM] Bushlurker: yeah - would be nice to have that as a surface parameter too
[8/2/2012 11:37:14 PM] Snake Man: rough = 1; ? hehe
[8/2/2012 11:37:51 PM] Bushlurker: :D - you could give it a try
[8/2/2012 11:39:00 PM] Snake Man: checked out takistan cfgsurfaces, some rock face was rough = 0.3; highest there.
[8/2/2012 11:39:40 PM] Snake Man: but yeah I guess the major point here is that in those kind of desert terrains the roads become strategic element in missions when your vehicles drive real slow on the sands.
[8/2/2012 11:40:12 PM | Edited 11:40:22 PM] Snake Man: still not sure if I like it though, driving around even in the smaller 25km rattler is damned slow when you use dirt roads not to mention the desert itself ;)
[8/2/2012 11:41:53 PM] Bushlurker: bigger terrains are for flyboys
[8/2/2012 11:42:01 PM] Bushlurker: takes forever to drive anywhere
[8/2/2012 11:42:33 PM] Snake Man: nah, those FOB's have true meaning on 51km terrain :)
[8/2/2012 11:42:39 PM] Bushlurker: my 20km scotland map was the same - offroad = mountain so you stuck to the roads.... took ages to drive across it
[8/2/2012 11:43:00 PM] Bushlurker: or you fly
[8/2/2012 11:46:13 PM] Snake Man: btw do you play much, or are you total editing guy nowadays? I mean do you enjoy your work in-game, in missions or you just do one project and move to the next spending your time with editing tools mostly?
[8/3/2012 12:21:41 AM] Bushlurker: I have a pal I've known since we were in school and we've played two player mp since the earliest ofp days - we still play for an hour or two most evenings
[8/3/2012 12:21:59 AM] Bushlurker: I never play singleplayer except to test stuff usually
[8/3/2012 12:23:02 AM] Bushlurker: don't play vbs2 at all except to test stuff.... there's no real "missions" as such...
[8/3/2012 12:23:54 AM] Snake Man: ok, well its nice that you play some MP with friend. sometimes I just edit and don't play at all, especially on those mad editing rushes I get.
[8/3/2012 12:24:58 AM] Bushlurker: my pal doesn't edit at all - can barely muster a modfolder... doesn't have the patience
[8/3/2012 12:25:05 AM] Bushlurker: so he's a refreshing change
[8/3/2012 12:26:04 AM] Bushlurker: and he also spots playability flaws in stuff which is handy sometimes
[8/3/2012 12:26:14 AM | Edited 12:26:18 AM] Bushlurker: :D
[8/3/2012 12:27:02 AM] Snake Man: view from someone who doesn't know anything about editing will definitely give unique perspective.
[2:40:35 AM] Snake Man: happy birthday :D
[2:41:01 AM] Bushlurker: hi SM
[2:41:09 AM] Bushlurker: :D cheers mate
[2:43:04 AM] Snake Man: do you celebrate birthdays, any family stuff planned, or some friends... or basic arma2 editing? :)
[2:44:41 AM] Bushlurker: :D.... doubt I'll be doing anything special...
</code>


====== Bushlurker on Multi Screen Setup ======

**Computer Hardware, monitor screens**. Dual or Triple Screen etc. August 2014.

<code>
[8/15/2014 02:04:17] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30396435/work_work_work.jpg
[Thursday, August 14, 2014 14:46] Snake Man:

<<< what would you recommend for budget hardware as now I have 24" LCD screen only. Would the minimum be 3 screens so its "symmetrical" or is dual screen setup usable too for playingDual screen is good for general work but in any game regardless of the arrangement you're inevitably going to end up with the bezels of the monitors right across the middle of the view... with 3 screens the main action happens in the middle screen fading to peripheral vision at the sides

what kind of setup would be ideal for multi screens?
do you prefer portrait or landscape mode,

Thinking primarily in Arma series terms - the actual aspect ratio offered in triplehead mode is 12:3 - that's 3 x old-style 4:3 monitors side-by side
At that aspect the whole game is still in proportion heights Vs width, etc

So the nearest you can get to that 12:3 aspect ratio the better

Traditionally, and with hardware solutions like Matrox etc, and more recently with the Nvidia surround and whatever ATI's equivalent is, the trend was for the obviously available 3 x widescreens side-by-side.... obviously that's a whole lot wider than it is tall and is well out of proportion compared to 12:3 - it's 48:9, in fact...

However - Matrox or the newer Nvidia etc was the only way to get triplescreen...

Apart from Kegetys (remember him?) "SoftTH"

It's a dx9 dll - configures itself autromatically, and allows you to play pretty much any directX 9 game on ANY combination of monitors, portrait, landscape, both, 5 in a row - 9 in a square - it doesn't care - it'll display the game across them all

and its free... ;)

So - Back in the Arma 2 days (its directX 9) I figured that - since I had a big 16:10 27" monitor already, I needed two side monitors, and the best way to get closest to that 12:3 proportions was to use 19" 4:3 monitors, turned portrait, as the side monitors... the vertical pixels almost match exactly, the physical sizes too, and the overall "letterbox" size and proportions aren't far off "true 12:3"

Sadly.... Arma 3 is directX 11 - SoftTH doesn't work

Keg works for us at BISim a fair bit nowadays and didn't want to get involved in delving thru a new direct X so he - typically - just gave away the source code for SoftTH and abandoned the project

Plenty of people have grabbed the code hoping for some fast-fame, but directX is complicated.... nobody has actually followed up on the hot air

So - for Arma 2 - any combination of monitors you can muster - toss in Keg's .dll and run the game and you're triplescreening ... (it makes a config file you can tweak and fine-tune later)

For Arma 3, and any other directX game post-9, you're stuck with using either the NVidia or ati solutions...

they - used to - require special monitors (ATI) or 3 x exactly the same res monitors (NVidia), though I believe that might be planned to change... I'm also unsure as to whether those systems can handle portrait style monitors either... you'd need to check....
[8/15/2014 02:04:38] Bushlurker: dammit...   :3 = : 3
[8/15/2014 02:04:47] Bushlurker: :D
[8/15/2014 02:11:06 | Edited 02:12:04] Bushlurker: with my setup the bottom three work as triplescreen - for arma2 and other directX 9 games anyway (you can see it running Fallujah in the pic)  - the 3 screens above belong to a separate computer that's primarily for work only - though theres just the one keyboard and mouse for both
</code>


====== Bushlurker Summer Vegetation ======

**Summer vegetation photoshop alpha channel repainting.** (unknown date, I think 2014).

<code>
[10:25:44 PM] Bushlurker: hi there.....
[10:26:55 PM] Bushlurker: hmmm.... yeah - Beton was really keen on the whole summerplants pack thing as a single big communal addon that everyone would use "as-is"... problem with that is - its the complete A2 veg set - not everyone wants to saddle their terrain with such a huge dependency
[10:27:28 PM] Bushlurker: the Replacement summerplants, on the other hand - the plug n play one for players - that was a good idea that worked out well....
[10:29:46 PM] Bushlurker: that all happened back in my early Arma 2 days - my contribution to that actual pack was pretty minimal.... when we got all the veg mlods for cwr2 from Ondrej I redid the lot myself - for cwr2.... which I think might have annoyed Beton a little, since I think he was hoping I'd chip in for a "summerplants2" update - but since it was work on behalf of cwr2 I don't really count those textures as "my own"
[10:31:07 PM] Bushlurker: when I did my Ireland terrain I did the trees I needed over again, specifically so they wouldn't be cwr2 content - and, like the original summerplants - I just used the repathed binarized models rather than the cwr2 mlod models
[10:32:03 PM] Bushlurker: only did a large-ish subset of veg for Cwr2, and a small subset for Ireland..... it takes a wee while to recolour, so you're sick of it once you've done just the stuff you need :D
[10:32:47 PM] Bushlurker: I was kinda hoping the ACR would provide a decent summerveg set, but people have been sounding disappointed at that.....
[10:32:57 PM] Bushlurker: haven't had a chance to check it out yet
[10:34:17 PM] Bushlurker: I'm still hoping that oneday once cwr2 is out and Wolle's all happy, I'll be able to contribute a big bunch of new veg textures to Beton, so he CAN do a Summerplants2 like he wants, but god knows when I'll get around to it......
[10:34:25 PM] Bushlurker: meantime
[10:34:47 PM] Bushlurker: doing the actual recolours is pretty easy - just takes a while getting the LOD transitions right
[10:35:51 PM] Bushlurker: that was where some of the A2 veg bad rep came from - like the famous "orange popping trees" which people complained about the lod popping, and somehow associated it with bad fps too, and some sort of "bad model" rumour
[10:36:22 PM] Bushlurker: the models are fine - I've used them all in mlod format - all viewblocks exist.....
[10:36:37 PM | Edited 10:37:10 PM] Bushlurker: the "popping lod" problem was simply careless LOD colouring.... one lod was brown, and the next was bright orange - so the tree seemed to "pop" as you approached
[10:39:06 PM] Bushlurker: having recoloured a few I can see why..... dunno how this veg was made - the old Sylvie tool I think - definitely not with the new Silvador...
[10:40:39 PM] Bushlurker: the shading somehow "changes" sometimes from one lod to the next - so it's not enough to simply recolour the 3 or 4 different LOD visual textures with "the same shade of green" - you'll get "colour popping" as you transition from one lod to the other.....
[10:41:02 PM] Bushlurker: exact composition varies from one tree type to the next, but basically.......
[10:42:29 PM] Bushlurker: you can leave all trunk textures alone, all you really need to edit are the _ca textures for the different lods - however many of them there happen to be
[10:43:10 PM] Bushlurker: theres sometimes an "_mc" texture too - retitn that one as well
[10:43:16 PM] Bushlurker: so - for example
[10:43:34 PM] Bushlurker: the Arma 2 tree "t_alnus2s"
[10:44:31 PM] Bushlurker: you'd convert "t_alnus2s_1_mc.paa" to a .png with Texview
[10:45:50 PM] Bushlurker: t_alnus2s_1_ca.paa, and t_alnus2s_5_ca.paa - are the two "visual" lod textures - convert both of them to .tga with Texview
[10:46:03 PM] Bushlurker: now you can load them into photoshop
[10:46:42 PM] Bushlurker: notice the _ca/.tga files will have an alpha - they're 32bit files - remember to save them back out as that when you're done with re-tinting
[10:47:35 PM] Bushlurker: I keep the "_mc" as a .png cause it's basically like a "_co" - a 24bit standard RGB - so it reminds me of the difference
[10:49:04 PM] Bushlurker: anyhow - now you have the lod textures in photoshop.... look for bark areas and select them all with magic wand or whatever - isolate as much of the obvious bark and trunk and branches as possible - then inverse the selection
[10:49:27 PM] Bushlurker: now you basically have "everything else" selected - which is basically all the leaves.....
[10:50:28 PM] Bushlurker: then - what I did was to trawl the internet looking for closeup pictures of the foliage of that particular species of tree - an "Alder" or "Elder" in the case of t_alnus
[10:52:16 PM] Bushlurker: then I selected a suitable area of that picture - including all the shades of green, then used photoshops "match colour" tool to match the selection in the samplepic to the selection in the tree texture
[10:52:32 PM] Bushlurker: theres sliders you can fool with, try to get a nice retint and blend
</code>


====== PMC 51km Desert Suggestions by Bushlurker ======

**Unknown date, I think 2014.**

feed the heightmap into l3dt with some sort of generic "climate" and see what it "suggests"

you can get clever... add a "water table" and a "lush grass"type surface - it'll pick out all the little dips n rises - you'll get "lush" in the dips - that could suggest oasis location....

but - it's desert - it's gonna look a bit "samey" anyway I guess

banana trees doesn't belong in the desert - it needs lots of water

palms are cool though - anywhere thats a nanometer closer to the watertable than the normal desert theres a chance of a wee palm getting its roots down far enough to hit water

once you're 50km or so inland, the "deep desert" starts to kick in

and - for a bit of "oasis spotting" - feed the heightmap to L3DT - use something like "basic temperate" climate... totally unsuitable, but all you're interested in is where it decides to put "lush grass"

make "lush grass" surface bright red or something... run l3dt generation - look where it puts the lush grass - maybe tweak a param or two - then export the Attributers map and rip out lush grass areas only - discard the rest

now you have an "overlay" showing just the lowest-lying areas

"treat" them slightly differently... lusher clutter, a few palms... etc

do the same thing with "rock cliff" or something in an l3dt climate - rip just those areas from the AM layer

basically using l3dt as a "spotter" to isolate areas you could treat a little differently

it's all just "desert" but its these "little differences" that can add a bit of variety

and - ideally - you don't wanna bugger about having to add these "different areas" manually, they'll look a lot more "naturally positioned" and be a lot less hassle to implement, if you can persuade some sort of "auto tool" like l3dt to isolate the areas for you

you can pull the same trick with "forests" on temperate style maps - trees like "southern facing slopes" - so you run slope and aspect analysis in something... Global Mapper - even Wilbur, and isolate just those areas as a layer

any and all info you can force out of the heightmap itself is handy - particularly when its not a realworld area

**06-14-14**
<code>
[19:52:30] Snake Man: hello, how are you today?

I was going through my notes on PMC 51km Desert terrain. I asked you before tips for satellite texture improvements, you suggested running heightmap through L3DT. how about cities... right now I'm sick of the ugly darkened city spots in the satellite. how would you make desert terrain city areas?
[19:57:28] Bushlurker: hi
[19:57:38] Bushlurker: less dark for a start probably
[19:58:03] Bushlurker: it's not a "forest floor" situation - especially with desert towns
[19:58:21] Bushlurker: everything is desert coloured - even the towns
[19:58:44] Bushlurker: try going to google map - go to somewhere like Saudi Arabia - zoom in on any medium town
[19:59:00] Bushlurker: the only really "dark bits" tend to be the roads
[19:59:29] Bushlurker: and even then only the major ones... minor ones tent towards dusty desert colours too
[19:59:57] Bushlurker: and the occasional patch of greenery
[20:01:28] Bushlurker: http://goo.gl/maps/PA5eh
[20:02:37] Snake Man: heh yeah indeed, there is NO differential terrain around the buildings really.
[20:02:44] Bushlurker: no
[20:02:44] Snake Man: yep... dark areas gotta go! ;)
[20:03:01] Bushlurker: at best the occasional tarmac yard or parking area or whatever
[20:04:12] Bushlurker: I'd dump the dark patches - go with standard desert colour... maybe the occasional car park, and some parks or green areas maybe
[20:04:23] Bushlurker: depending on the context
[20:05:28] Snake Man: also I need to step up my skillz doing the transitions, gotta learn how to use photoshop brushes better.
[20:05:42] Snake Man: the hard edges that this satellite has now is like ugh :(
[20:08:18] Bushlurker: I usually let l3dt do a lot of the basic rendering....
[20:08:47 | Edited 20:08:57] Bushlurker: that new A3 flyboy map of mine is 100% l3dt - no hand painting at all apart from stuff like runways
[20:10:20] Snake Man: but you still use custom textures in L3DT (cant remember island 51 now but I mean generally)?
[20:10:37] Snake Man: I didn't really like the default desert texturing from L3DT.
[20:10:58] Snake Man: also my third 90 day trial has expired, dunno if I have anymore emails to get some more hehe.
[20:12:45] Bushlurker: yeah....
[20:12:58] Bushlurker: like - you were looking at Saudi....
[20:13:27] Bushlurker: pick a desert area - grab a 512x512 - make it seamless - use that as a l3dt texture
[20:14:34 | Edited 20:15:36] Bushlurker: or - load it into photoshop > Select all > define as pattern
[20:14:43] Bushlurker: then load your mask
[20:15:02] Bushlurker: use ... Select > colour range and select the mask desert colour
[20:15:15] Bushlurker: feather the selection by a few pixels
[20:15:26] Bushlurker: fill with pattern
[20:15:46] Snake Man: yep that's how I made the current basic desert background, looks ok.
[20:16:01] Snake Man: except the cities/populated areas look like crap, those indeed have to go ;)
[20:16:52] Snake Man: I painted whole airbase area with concrete, I noticed that I dont even need runways to takeoff, little foolish feeling to takeoff any direction from the hangars heh. so airbase needs to be reset back to sand other than runways/taxiways too.
[20:17:10] Bushlurker: yup
[20:17:50] Bushlurker: and only the runway will probably look like grey tarmac - taxiways get less attention and will be "sandy tarmac"
[20:19:06] Bushlurker: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162125-Bush-s-quot-Strange-New-Worlds-quot&p=2476464&viewfull=1#post2476464

this sat texture is 100% l3dt
[20:19:58 | Edited 20:20:28] Bushlurker: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/109251023774933984036/albums/5918847955629576849

this one was 100% photoshop "pattern fill" - based off the mask
[20:23:17] Snake Man: hmm wait, hows that possible to have clean snow on the lower elevation and the mountain ridges with that rocky stuff using pattern fill? :O
[20:29:19] Bushlurker: yeah
[20:29:43] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30396435/NewTemp/RP_mask.JPG
[20:29:53] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30396435/NewTemp/RP_mask2.JPG
[20:30:42] Bushlurker: it was a 3 colour mask originally... flat, slope, rock - but I ended up just using the same snow texture for flat & slope - so its a 2 colour terrain... :D
[20:32:26] Snake Man: ok but I dont understand how you make this with pattern fill (unless I confuse the method somehow)? https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-w1zhYPmagPo/UiP44kjzzsI/AAAAAAAAAf4/mKSDRgXDwxc/w1389-h868-no/Rura_Penthe_03.png
[20:32:46] Snake Man: pattern fill just fills whole image with same plain one pattern, right?
[20:33:17] Bushlurker: you define a pattern first - load any square seamless image - select all - define as pattern
[20:34:04] Bushlurker: then after loading the mask - you use Select > Colour Range and select all the "red" bits - then "fill with pattern"
[20:34:19] Bushlurker: it fills all red areas with "rock texture"
[20:34:53] Bushlurker: then "invert selection" - hit Fill with pattern again - using a previously defines "snow" pattern - and you're done
[20:35:14] Snake Man: Aaah! based off the mask, ok sorry didn't get that previously.
[20:35:50] Bushlurker: usually I mess around a little with "feather" and some of the other selection options so you get a bit of blending at the edges between snow & rock
[20:35:55] Bushlurker: yeah
[20:36:02] Bushlurker: make a copy of mask first
[20:36:10] Bushlurker: then use that as a selection template
[20:36:41] Bushlurker: mask was made in l3dt to start with
[20:37:27] Bushlurker: 3 colour "climate" - "flat bits" "slope bits" "really steep bits"
[20:37:48] Bushlurker: though eventually I just used "snow pattern" on the flat and the slope
[20:38:27] Bushlurker: I mask everything with l3dt to start with - based off the heightmap
[20:39:13] Snake Man: my heightmap is made on wilbur using 50m brush, I cant remember the grid at the time... must have been 1024 I think. so you know that it will bring that OFP smoooooth look to the elevations. I recall that L3DT doesnt give much of any attributes for the mountain parts as its so smooth.
[20:41:12] Bushlurker: this was the original Island 51 mask in l3dt
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30396435/NewTemp/Hmmm_so_far.PNG

I had a "grass" altitude cutoff originally, so beyond a certain height it used "slope" (cyan) instead of grass - abandoned that later since max altitude is only about 600 meters or so - trees etc are still ok at those sort of heights, so it became just a sort of "high plateau" eventually once I'd thought about it a little more
[20:42:37] Bushlurker: you can see it differentiating between "dry plains" (magenta), "plain grass" (green) and "slope grass" (cyan) even on the fairly smooth and level lowland areas
[20:43:13] Bushlurker: just a question of microtuning the climate in l3dt until you get what you want
[20:44:42] Bushlurker: that pic is from l3dt 3D view with a basic lo-res "Attribute Layer" overlay - just to see where the colours are going.... once you're happy you can crank up the res and do a full render
[20:46:25] Bushlurker: l3dt results are a little simplistic for a full-blown project, but they're still a useful starting point... and for simple demop terrains they're usually all you need
[20:52:04] Snake Man: but what to do if the terrain is so smooth it just stamps "desert" everywhere?
[20:52:59] Bushlurker: tweak the parameters by micro amounts - like 0.1 at a time until you start to see differentiation
[20:53:42] Bushlurker: every heightmap is different, and climate parametrs which are suitable for terrains with huge cliffs won't work on "gentle rolling hills"
[20:55:34] Snake Man: ok I'll try. btw in island 51 how did you smooth out the airbase location on the heightmap. on L3DT or in terrainbuilder? (didnt check but I assume it had to be smoothed out a bit for runways etc).
[20:59:05] Bushlurker: I'd exported an outline of the bases to overlay on the mask, so while I was playing with that I made a much lower res version - loaded it into l3dt as an overlay - then used the 3D heightmap edit mode with that image as a texture overlay which showed me exactly where the base and runway was - then I flattened it in l3dt
[20:59:46] Bushlurker: could've just used terrainbuilder tho
[21:00:08] Bushlurker: but since I had the overlay anyway...
</code>

**06-16-14**
<code>
[04:13:57] Snake Man: I was tweaking L3DT climate and finally got sand + mountain terrain types to work together so that mainly my 51km desert is sand but the mountains get the mountain terrain type.
[04:14:24] Snake Man: only problem now is that the mountain SLOPE gets the mountain color, while on top of the mountain which of course is again very smooth and level (large area too), gets sand :)
[04:14:31] Snake Man: I bet that looks silly
[04:14:44] Snake Man: any ideas how to solve that?
[04:16:08] Bushlurker: you could set a maximum height for "sand" above which something else takes its place
[04:17:16] Bushlurker: or not bother setting something else to take its place - in which case the "winner" will be "mountain texture" since it's no longer being "beaten by sand" beyond that height
[04:19:19] Bushlurker: take a look at this one again
[04:19:21] Bushlurker: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30396435/NewTemp/Hmmm_so_far.PNG
[04:19:35] Bushlurker: and think about it in "climate" terma
[04:20:38] Bushlurker: every surface has a base chance plus modifiers which can reduce or increase that base chance depending on the ground cell that's being considered
[04:21:39] Bushlurker: the size of the ground cell is determined by your chosen resolution.... usually 1 meter for us terrain guys
[04:22:46] Bushlurker: so for each 1x1 meter, L3DT considers the "state" of the heightmap at that point... is it flat or sloping? how steep a slope? is it near the sea? near the "water table"? what altitude is it?
[04:23:52] Bushlurker: then it looks at all your climate surfaces - checks their base scores... adds, or substacts points from those base scores depending on it's heightmap analysis above...
[04:24:16] Bushlurker: Then it decides on a "winner" for that 1x1 meter area, and moves on to the next
[04:24:44] Bushlurker: this is why a) it takes a while to calculate a 20480x20480 pixel image :D
[04:25:11] Bushlurker: and b) why - thanks to Aaron - the more threads you can muster on your CPU the better....
[04:25:32] Bushlurker: now look at my picture
[04:26:21] Bushlurker: in the "sea" areas, Sand "wins"
[04:26:58] Bushlurker: as you get onshore and further from that "sea bonus", Sand starts to "lose" to "green grass"
[04:28:12] Bushlurker: right across most of the relatively flat areas, Grass is a clear winner - but, notice those magenta patches?
[04:29:11] Bushlurker: that's another surface - call it "Lush Grass" - it gets a bonus from "water" - not "sea" but the "water table" - an invisible underground water "plane" - see L3DT help files for detsils... ;)
[04:30:12] Bushlurker: in low-lying dells and dips and natural "bowls", "Lush Grass" just edges ahead of normal Grass in the bonus stakes - wins, and that's the Magenta areas
[04:31:00] Bushlurker: then - as you get beyond a certain gradient, theres another surface - the Cyan "Slope" - it gets a bonus for gradient, so beyond a certain degree of slope, it beats Grass and "wins"
[04:31:49] Bushlurker: Red "rock" is just "Slope" with less of a base chance, but more of a bonus - so it "wins" where the gradient is steeper andf therefore "worth a bigger bonus"
[04:32:47] Bushlurker: and finally - in this picture, "Green Grass" (and Lush Grass) have a "ceiling" - a maximum altitude at which they can occur....
[04:33:16] Bushlurker: notice how the tops of the mountains are all "Cyan Slope" - even the "Flat" areas?
[04:34:24] Bushlurker: That's 'cause - in the absence of the high Base Chance Grasses, Slope "wins" in those areas, and will only ever be "beaten" by rock, and then, only in High Gradient Bonus" areas.....
[04:34:30] Bushlurker: get the idea?
[04:36:27] Bushlurker: Sometimes the difference between "no surface at all" and "too bloody much of it" is tiny amounts on the base chance or bonus parameters.... you just need to mcrojuggle the numbers at low res, and preview the results - like in that picture - until you're happy with the general layout of colours, then beef up the resolution to your final hi-res level and off you go with a full render
[04:38:29] Snake Man: yes, thanks, got it fixed with the altitude range. looking good now thanks.
[04:39:30] Snake Man: you have nice arma compatible climates, have you considered ever sharing these to the public?
[04:41:13] Bushlurker: tried packaging one once, but its the nature of the way they're made - as you'll discover when you start making your own
[04:41:30] Bushlurker: theres a climate file - so you make a folder and save that somewhere...
[04:41:55] Bushlurker: once you've made a few, you think you're ok cause you made a folder each time you made a new climate
[04:42:32] Bushlurker: but then you realise that each climate calls on a "material file" and it in turn calls on texture and bumpmap images
[04:42:50] Bushlurker: and if you got "grass" nice in one climate you maybe use it in another
[04:43:30] Bushlurker: so the climate is actually calling on files from a dozen different locations
[04:44:20] Bushlurker: and its a major restructuring and repathing and locating of files job to assemble all the necessary components for a climate into a single folder
[04:45:34] Snake Man: are the paths also hardcoded to your l3dt install dir on top of that?
[04:45:55] Bushlurker: like - the "grass" from my island 51 terrain calls on the cwr2 Nogova grass material from its folder, the "beach sand" draws on files from a climate I made for Malden, the rock is from a VBS climate I made for a "futuristic snow-free Greenland" map, etc etc
[04:46:09] Snake Man: hmm if so, perhaps someone ought to suggest this to the l3dt developer to have climates easily shareabale in single directory/archive.
[04:46:28] Snake Man: ah ok
[04:46:29] Bushlurker: once you've been making them for a while your Climates folder tends to grow organically and expand
[04:47:15] Snake Man: hmm maybe we could write (meaning you haha!) quick tutorial how to make basic beachsand-grass-mountainrock climate tutorial for suitable for arma terrains.
[04:47:37] Snake Man: for PMC Editing Wiki. I have bunch of other l3dt info there too.
[04:47:53] Snake Man: today I googled "l3dt" and second (2)! hit was PMC Editing Wiki, haha :O
[04:49:52 | Edited 04:52:17] Bushlurker: when you're making a new climate the usual thing to do is - pick the most suitable one from the bunch you have already - copy it - save it to a folder and take it from there - problem is - you then maybe have 4 > 6 surfaces which call on either that previous climates folder, or even other ones if you used materials from other climates.... you'd then need to go find each material file and copy it to the new folder, then open each one up and see what texture/bumpmap images are used - one of each per layer, up to 6 layers per climate.... up to 12 path edits per material...
[04:50:32] Bushlurker: could take hours - just to consiolidate a climate within a folder, and since it works just fine as it is - it's hard to find the motivation to do it.... :D
[04:51:16] Bushlurker: theres a "sand, grass, rock" climate provided with l3dt I think
[04:52:39] Snake Man: I just submitted 90 day trial for another email again, yet no reply... dunno if I accidently used one I had there before (had like three already I think). do you know if it just doesnt send nothing if it detects dupe email? (and yes, I'm too cheap/poor to purchase the 35 bucks tool).
[04:54:49] Bushlurker: theres no "human element" anymore - Aaron abandoned that - instant automated reply unless your email/ip is already on the "he's had a copy" list I think
[04:56:13] Bushlurker: I rarely use it for vbs, but I use it for just about every Arma terrain so I long since bit the 20 quid bullet....
[05:01:47] Snake Man: yes it indeed is perhaps worth 35 bucks if we think about software worldwide, but still... I'm not going to buy it or anything. I'll stick with wilbur and the 2048 limit in l3dt heh.
[05:02:45] Snake Man: oh and satellite texture limit too of course.
[05:02:57] Snake Man: err which is the same but I was thinking heightmap hehe nevermind ;)
[05:04:35] Bushlurker: think the sat limit is 4096 in the demo
[05:04:42] Bushlurker: 2048 heightmap
[05:09:31] Snake Man: I just used your instructions how to pattern file on top of mask file in photoshop, wow works great. that is really cool method to make satellite texture.
[05:10:26] Bushlurker: bit of "selection feathering" at the edges gives a blend between - yeah - works good
[6/16/2014 05:12:52] Snake Man: hmm can you walk me through the feathering details as that's one of my areas I'm very bad at, please?
[6/16/2014 05:13:09 | Edited 05:13:14] Snake Man: (didn't find those details on our previous chat)
[6/16/2014 05:13:13] Bushlurker: it's under the Selections menu
[6/16/2014 05:13:23] Bushlurker: "Modify selection" I think
[6/16/2014 05:14:03] Bushlurker: basically adds a "fade out" to the edges of the area
[6/16/2014 05:14:36] Snake Man: select -> modify -> feather ?
[6/16/2014 05:15:31] Bushlurker: sometimes best to "expand selection" a little first so you make the edges a couple of pixels bigger, then set a couple of pixels fade, so the basic transition happens at roughly the same spot
[6/16/2014 05:15:44] Bushlurker: yeah - that sounds right
[6/16/2014 05:15:59] Bushlurker: you don't actually see any difference to the selection when you do it
[6/16/2014 05:16:16] Bushlurker: but when you "fill" you'll see the "fade" at the edges
[6/16/2014 05:18:09] Snake Man: err wasnt feather... it added some odd glowing yellow color now! :O
[6/16/2014 05:18:33 | Edited 05:18:35] Snake Man: err 2
[6/16/2014 05:18:41] Snake Man: hmm is that my original background...
[6/16/2014 05:18:44] Snake Man: hmm...
[6/16/2014 05:20:43] *** Bushlurker sent IMG_16062014_032057.png ***
[6/16/2014 05:21:25] Bushlurker: that's a white background - square selection...

Select > Modify > Feather - 6 pixels - then "fill" with red
[6/16/2014 05:22:40] Snake Man: ah yes, I see now.
[6/16/2014 05:25:06 | Edited 05:25:12] Snake Man: yes! now I got it in PS, now I have to write the steps down, this is golden stuff man, thanks! :D
[6/16/2014 05:25:38] Bushlurker: its a quick 'n dirty l3dt substitute
[6/16/2014 05:26:01] Bushlurker: results are basically as good as the mask you start with
[6/16/2014 05:26:33] Snake Man: hmm yeah l3dt... do you have some examples of your finest climate work on satellite texture? I mean the greatest looking sat-tex you've made in it?
[6/16/2014 05:26:53] Bushlurker: those trek terrains are pretty good
[6/16/2014 05:27:04] Bushlurker: was quite pleased with them
[6/16/2014 05:27:32] Bushlurker: the orange mars/Arizona deserty looking one is 100% l3dt - no manual PS stuff at all
[6/16/2014 05:29:20] Snake Man: do you think the 2048 res mask can be used for final results, or is it too low res. I mean resize it to 40960?
[6/16/2014 05:29:32] Bushlurker: the snowy one was done entirely in PS using selections and pattern fill
[6/16/2014 05:29:50] *** Bushlurker sent picturemap_taurus_ii_ca.png ***
[6/16/2014 05:30:10] Bushlurker: that's straight l3dt materials
[6/16/2014 05:31:22] *** Bushlurker sent rura.png ***
[6/16/2014 05:31:35] Bushlurker: that one is entirely PS pattern fill
[6/16/2014 05:33:45] Snake Man: looks very good.
[6/16/2014 05:34:27] Snake Man: hrr still no serial code from l3dt... dunno if I've already used that email :(
[6/16/2014 05:35:35] Bushlurker: there woulda been an instant response
[6/16/2014 05:35:44] Bushlurker: might need a new email and a fake ip
[6/16/2014 05:36:11] Snake Man: IP, you think so?
[6/16/2014 05:36:46] Bushlurker: well he's clearly logging something automatically
[6/16/2014 05:40:30] Snake Man: wonder if we could export EMF from v3 and paint that somehow manually to make detailed mask from existing terrain image. hmm. requires some work and its not very detailed (unless you really zoom in to paint). hmm. dunno, too much work I think.
[6/16/2014 05:40:37] Snake Man: would be easier to buy the frigging l3dt ;)
[6/16/2014 05:41:11] Bushlurker: yup.... :D
[6/16/2014 05:45:58] Snake Man: one more thing. do you have good tips how to make rolling hills heightmaps in L3DT, as when I do them they are always the crazy insane rugged areas where its impossible to add populated "arma" areas?
[6/16/2014 05:46:08] Snake Man: I tried all kinds of values, but no dice...
[6/16/2014 05:46:36] Snake Man: I mean making heightmap on wilbur is then too gamey looking, its just so bland.
[6/16/2014 05:46:44] Snake Man: at least freehand on 50m brush ;)
[6/16/2014 05:47:34] Bushlurker: I don't usually actually make heightmaps in l3dt... I use it mainly for fast edits and texturing
[6/16/2014 05:47:51] Bushlurker: haven't really messed much with its heightmap generating stuff
</code>



====== Visitor 3 Invalid Texture Layer ======

**Uknown date, I think 2014.**

<code>
[7:56:13 AM] Bushlurker: cool
[7:56:41 AM] Bushlurker: go into Project parameters - set Base Texture layer to 50x50m
[7:57:35 AM] Bushlurker: it'll go "invalid" - so then hit the calculator button - re-enter 12800 as sat size and "apply proposed" then close
[7:57:41 AM] Bushlurker: should be valid again
[7:57:49 AM] Snake Man: it says satellite segment... aahh. sec...
[7:58:18 AM] Snake Man: holy smokes, never knew it has such quirk! :)
[7:58:29 AM] Snake Man: goddamn v3 ! :)
[7:58:40 AM] Bushlurker: then delete layers folder - reimport sat & mask - run BD - save .wrp & crunch
[7:58:45 AM] Snake Man: I've been frustrated by the texture layer INVALID for long time :)
[7:59:04 AM] Snake Man: that tip is SO going into our wiki ;)
[7:59:05 AM] Snake Man: thanks man
[7:59:12 AM] Bushlurker: sometimes it needs reminded when you change one thing
[7:59:50 AM] Bushlurker: think it might just be a whole lot better now
[8:01:01 AM | Edited 8:01:12 AM] Bushlurker: if you decided to use an "over res" sat layer - like we did with CWR2 - say 20480x20480... = about 0.6m/pixel - you would need to set base texture layer one notch lower at 25x25m
[8:01:34 AM] Bushlurker: it must ALWAYS be HIGHER than ground cell size
[8:01:48 AM] Bushlurker: but by default - it's always set TO ground cell size
[8:02:24 AM] Bushlurker: its tied to the ground cell size, so if you were 12.5m then the values on offer are 12.5, 25, 50 etc
[8:02:34 AM] Bushlurker: with 10m cell its 10, 20, 40, etc
[8:03:15 AM] Bushlurker: Vis is happiest if you're TWO steps up from your ground cell size - so with 10m you want 40x40m Base Tex Layer
[8:04:20 AM | Edited 8:04:34 AM] Bushlurker: but its also tied to the Sat & Mask layer size - so as you increase that beyond 1m/px then you'll find that you need to use the next Base Tex layer size down - 40x40m would become "invalid" - you'd need to use 20x20m, for example
[8:05:53 AM] Bushlurker: you can bend the rules a little there and get away with only one step higher than ground cell size - but it must always be higher or you get all sorts of issues - AI path following goes dodgy, you get flickering "checkerboard" sat layer on distant mountains, and.... fps can take a hit
</code>


====== Bushlurker Photoshop Tips ======

**Uknown date, I think 2014.**

a PS layer with a basic "grass" texture, and underneath, another layer with a more "dry grass" texture - but the "dry grass" layer has an alpha mask - filled with solid black - so it doesn't show at all.

then I set that layer to something like "overlay" or "soft light" and then you can "paint" with a natural brush with white on the black of the alpha layer mask - as you brush, the dry grass "fades thru" and starts to show on the "green grass" layer


====== Terrain From Paper Maps ======

**Uknown date, I think 2014.**

**ArmA 2 Terrain - How to make height map from paper maps**

you might be able to get a declassified US military map or two

http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b272/Bushlurker/Iwo%20Jima/

if you can get a paper map from the era you could try georectifying it over modern imagery - get it lined up correctly in it's realworkd location

I use this a lot for work.... client sketches of areas etc - you can georectify anything and treat it like satellite imagery.....

heres crappy paper report maps of different scottish tree habitiats.....

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?109595-World-Tools-1-7&p=1808553&viewfull=1#post1808553

once they're overlaid and scaled via georectifying you can get the info they contain onto the ground where it's siupposed to be......

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?109595-World-Tools-1-7&p=1807998&viewfull=1#post1807998

basically, you need a GIS program

I use Imagine a lot, but also Global Mapper

Qgis will do it too

first thing you need is a proper sat image of the area - you load that in first

then you load the second image - often its just a jpg or something....

then you "georectify" the second image using the first as a base

programs differ but usually you select the "Georectify" option, then you see the two images side by side

now you match "known points"

like coastline features, coreners of streets, centres of roundabouts

ANY feature that you can see present in BOTH images

you click a point on the base image - then a point on the new paper map image and you click the "make pair" or whatever its called button

basically saying "this point on this map is this point on that map"

"control points" they're called

you click a few - sometimes a lot - then you hit "georectify" and it basically "rubbersheets" the second image - overlaying it on the base image and matching up all the control points

my first "proper paid archaeologist" job was actually almost entirely doing exactly that - matching in old B&W 1950's Brit RAF aerial photographs to a base map of Cyprus

like - the hue one has treed areas, streets, even individual basic house footprints

once thats georeferenced and cropped to match your mask and sat exactly you can start grabbing that area data and using it

these other maps are basically "topo" maps - contours to give an idea of height in the absence of a DEM

you HAVE a dem - its other info you want - like roads, veg areas, rivers, houses areas - whatever... so "planning" maps, military or otherwise are handiest - usually smaller scale too


====== L3DT skype chat ======

**Uknown date, I think 2014.**

I use it for generating basic 4 colour sat & masks really - it's ok for that stuff - the texturing on the sat layer isn't brilliant, but I enhance that, and it does a good job of "reading" heightmaps, and assigning logical areas like sand, grass, lush, dry, slope, rock.... quite clever

free one is all you need for heightmap editing - does up to 2048x2048 - no restrictions or time limit

a good text is if you have a heightmap and sat from some realworld location - feed the heightmap to l3dt and see where it puts stuff like sand, rock, grass, "rougher steep slopes"... then compare it to the real world sat image

for realworld stuff I feature extract from the sat to get a mask - then make a synthetic sat from the mask and blend it with the realworld sat image

I used to use the erosion tools in Wilbur over a basic photoshopped basemap, but nowadays I use the G forge plugin for leveller for almost all that synthetic stuff


====== Bushlurker Island 51 ======

In 2014 Bushlurker sent me his terrain builder test terrain called "Island 51" which is 51km x 51km terrain created in L3DT. This terrain was never released to my knowledge.

As tribute to Bushlurker I decided to add mod.cpp to this addon dir, pack it up and put for everyone to download.

Get Bushlurker Island 51 from [[http://www.pmctactical.org/arma3/downloads.php|PMC Tactical ArmA 3 Downloads]].
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